KPFA - APEX Express

APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asian and Pasifika folx from all corners of the community. We are dedicated to highlighting the artists and changemakers that make up our diverse community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, artists, and activists and airs each week on KPFA 94.1FM.

KPFA - APEX Express is a news podcast hosted by KPFA, with 25 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80.

KPFA hosts KPFA - APEX Express, a news show with 25 episodes published.

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  KPFA - APEX Express

  APEX Express – 9.17.26- My Family Ep 2: What happens in ICE detention?

  Sep 17, 20261 hour

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. This month on APEX Express (@apexexpress), tune in for episode two of My Family, a 3-part audio series produced in collaboration with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee (APSC). The series centers stories and voices of Cambodian, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Asian families navigating the carceral system, detention, and deportation—detailing harrowing lived experience alongside cultural and historical expertise. Hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim (@michellekimkim), episode two continues the series with three formerly incarcerated Asian Americans who detail distinct but overlapping journeys: immigrating as children, growing up excluded, getting locked up young, and ultimately facing detention and deportation. Also featured: Elijah Chhum (@newlightwellness), founder of New Light Wellness, a wellness and mutual aid organization supporting Southeast Asian communities impacted by deportation. He shares how the organization began and its work with community members rebuilding their lives in Cambodia. My Family Ep. 2: What happens in ICE detention? Transcript [APEX] [2026] [My Family] – EP. 2 FINAL [00:00:00] Michelle MiJung Kim: Hello. Welcome to “My Family,” a project by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express. I’m your host, Michelle Mijung Kim. If you haven’t yet, I invite you to check out our first episode. We’ll include a tag in the show notes, which you can find at kpfa.org/program/apex-express/. As as [00:01:00] listeners may know, many Southeast Asians are in the United States after their families found refuge here in the ’70s and ’80s, fleeing genocide and violence in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. Most have loved ones who didn’t survive. The ones who did make it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the US. Today, after decades of building a home in the US, these families are targeted by mass detention and deportation. According to the latest data, forty-two percent of all Southeast Asian deportations to date happened between 2025 and 2026. There’s been a twentyfold increase in the deportations of Southeast Asian elders. Amid the pain and fear, families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together? That’s why I’m partnering with the Asian [00:02:00] Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, to bring our communities and families honest recounts of what is happening so that we can be there for each other. In today’s episode, we’ll focus on what happens in ICE detention. Welcome to “My Family.” A content warning for our listeners that in today’s episode, we’ll be discussing incarceration, depression, and family separation. We first met NC in our last episode. NC and his family are Hmong. Like many other ethnic groups in Laos, including Lahu and Mien, Hmong people’s stories are unfa– Hmong people’s stories are unfamiliar to many. These ethnic groups and others have shared ancient roots in the central and southern– in the central and southern regions of China. About 300 years ago, they were forced to flee the Chinese government’s oppression and persecution. Many sought safety in the highlands [00:03:00] of Southeast Asia. NC’s family settled in N- N- NC’s family settled in Laos. During the Vietnam War, the CIA recruited tens of thousands of Hmong boys and men, including members of NC’s family, to fight in a covert campaign in Laos known as the Secret War, which you can learn more about in the resources we’ll share in the show notes. Hmong fighters served behind enemy lines, rescued US planes, and risked their lives for Americans. The Hmong soldiers were told that they were– The Hmong soldiers were told they and their families would be protected, but when the war ended, the Americans left, and thousands of Hmong were left behind. Facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee. One– Facing p- facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee to survive, rendering them stateless. Thousands of Hmong families and other ethnic minority groups hid in the jungles or escaped on foot. Many died on the journey from starvation, drowning, and disease. NC’s parents, [00:04:00] his mom pregnant with him, finally crossed the Mekong River into Thailand. NC was born into a refugee camp there, and after some time, his family was brought to the US, first in Long Beach and later in Stockton, where his dad opened an auto body shop As a young person, NC was convicted of a crime, which led him to being incarcerated for 24 years. On the day he was supposed to be released from prison last year, instead of finally, instead of finally being able to return home, he was picked up by ICE. He had planned to finish his college education and become a social worker, helping young people struggling with trauma and loss like he did. ICE took him to Mesa Verde, a detention facility in Bakersfield, California. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California, and other facilities, and other f- and other ICE facilities in California have led hun– Oh my gosh. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California have led hunger and labor strikes to protest medical neglect, gruesome conditions, including a perpetual lack of food and clean water. California Attorney [00:05:00] General Rob Bonta says the conditions are worse now, calling ICE’s facilities in the state, quote, ” cruel, inhumane, and unacceptable.” As of this recording, at least 24 people have died in ICE custody nationwide this year. We’ll hear from NC what happened after ICE agents brought him to the Mesa Verde ICE facility. Here’s NC NC (pseudonym): Yeah, it’s kinda… It’s hard because when you hit detention, it’s like you paroled, you’re happy that you paroled because you’ve been incarcerated, ’cause I’ve been incarcerated for like like 24 years, and like, you know, it’s the next step. So it’s the next step to freedom. And while I went to a detention facility, you know, you know, it’s like the main thing is just try to get out, not, not to get into trouble, you know. um, so during that time, it was like you don’t have like, like… If you don’t have, like, money to hire an attorney, then basically it’s kinda like you trying to ask for a pro bono attorney, somebody that’s willing to help you and represent you, but they have a lot of people in the [00:06:00] detention facility as well. So when they come, it’s like they’re just overwhelmed with a whole bunch of people, and you hardly even get to, to really sit down and talk with them. So if you see them, they come visit like, I think, once a month, and then they’ll just take your A number down, and then they’ll just talk to you, and then they’ll just, you know… If they come back to you, I guess they come back to you. But I haven’t really seen any, anybody, you know, um, they ever got back to that I know of, so. so. Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm. NC (pseudonym): all the people, all the de- detainees that was there, um, those that were fighting their case, you know, Either they have a private, uh, immigration attorney, um, fighting for them, uh, uh, or they’re just doing paperwork themself. one of the thing I wanna point out is while you’re in detention, you don’t have access to anything, you know. They give you like a tablet, and they give you like some cases on it, but you really don’t have access to look up anything or research anything. You only have, you know, the access to whatever that they [00:07:00] gave you um, According to their tablet. And, And, and it’s just like the tablet, they only have like… Like, for example, when I was there, um- We only had to, we had to share, like, four tablets, and there was a lot of us. And people sh- use it to, like, order canteen. Somebody would, like, use it to watch movie, listen to the radio. Some people would use it to, um, talk with their family, Mm-hmm … like um, But, um, um, we don’t have enough tablets and, um, we don’t have enough, um, um, batteries on the tablet. And um, just getting a hold of the tablet is, is, um, is pretty hard to get. And, And, like, um… They give you, like, a little pin for the, the computer, but it’s hard to, um, access it because they don’t really… There’s, like, no… They don’t really teach you how to access anything anyway. So you’re just, like, going from one place to another, and if you have something, you don’t know how to save it. So you would have to ask other people that’s been there for a while, and then you would have to go to, like… like… You know, all this is, all this is just, like, um, like, um, I learned after, you know? It’s not like, like, like when I was [00:08:00] there- Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm NC (pseudonym): somebody was, was, you know, you know, showing me. So you have to sign up. You have to go to the library, and when they schedule… ‘Cause there’s, like, it’s overcrowded and there’s so many people. And, and they schedule the library. There’s, like, one librarian and, and, you know, you know, we have to share the library. And then if you go there, then you have to try to get it printed or, you know, stuff like that. And then, and then when you do that stuff, you have to be able to sign up. You gotta have it, and if the librarian’s not there, then you just have to wait until another time. So everything is just, um, hard. It’s not like, um, like if you remember something, then you can do something. And it’s, like, uh, even pencils and paper, if you don’t have, like, money to buy it on your canteen, then you would just have to ask somebody for it because everything… ‘ Cause once you get there, they don’t give you any property, you know? So sometimes, um, if you talk to the, the, uh, detaining officers, if they let you take some of your, um, like hygiene items. Like if you come from prison, you take some of your hygiene items, they’ll allow you to bring it with you. [00:09:00] But other than that, it’s like you really don’t have access to anything. ‘ Cause once you get there, you have to slip out of your clothes, and you gotta wear, you know, prison clothes and can’t have any, um, any personal belongings on you. So you’re just, like, going from one… It’s like one, one prison to another prison. You just, you know, try to just be calm and, um, you know, try to just, you know, stay, don’t get into trouble, uh, you know, await for your, um, immigration hearing. um, And the first time I was there, um, I waited for my immigration hearing and, um, um, they didn’t even, um, um, get my paperwork because something happened, and I had to call, call, and had to write a bunch of letters and paper and that’s how… That’s why I didn’t, like, go to, um, um, my immigration hearing, like, like, within, like, a couple of weeks when I got there. I had to wait, like, a whole month, you know, before I got scheduled for one. So, ’cause they, they lost my paperwork. I don’t know if they, they d- lost it or sent it because I was writing to the, the, ICE agent that, um, um, is in charge of my case, and they said they [00:10:00] don’t have any paperwork on me, so they can’t… You know, You know, I was writing to the courts and I was, you know, dialing the phone number to the courts to see if they, um, um, uh, scheduled me for m- an immigration hearing. So it was, it it was, part of the process of sending the paperwork from the ICE place to the, uh, courts so they can schedule it, and they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t do it. So I had to wait. I had to stay, like, an extended like, period of time, much longer than I should have um, I was able to finish… I mean, they were able to schedule me and then, um, during that time, you know, I saw attorneys and they were just telling me, ” Oh, nothing’s gonna happen to you. Um, the country’s not gonna accept you. Um, just go and, you know, you can fight it if you want, but you’re probably gonna lose. So you’re gonna be here, like, two, three, four, five years fighting it in, in detention. And then if you just, you know, s- agree to it, like, yes, yes, yes, and then, then, after you sign all the paperwork, you just, you know, you’ll wait about, like, a month, and, and then you’ll just be out of here.” So that was just the, like, like, you know, Basically, like a protocol. Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:11:00] NC was eventually put on an Omni Air International plane. Many first learned about Omni’s large contract with ICE in 2018 when it helped execute the then largest deportation flight of Southeast Asian refugees in the United States history. Since 2025, Omni’s work for ICE has quadrupled. As journalist Gillian Brockell has ex– as journalist Gillian Brockell explained, Omni has been the only large jet airline flying shackled passengers on long-haul ICE flights to Africa and Asia. A former ICE official told NBC last year that each ICE flight costs taxpayers about $25,000 per hour. NC was deported last November. NC (pseudonym): Well, like like when I came to Laos, I didn’t have anybody. Um, I didn’t know nobody, not a single relative or friend over here. But, um, um, uh, when I went to the detention [00:12:00] facility, I met a guy and we became friends, and he kinda like, like, he had relatives here in Laos. So he told me that, um, um, you know, “Hey, if, um, um, if you don’t have anybody, you know, you know, I’ll tell my, um, my family to, to come and, um, um, sponsor you.” You know, like his, his, distant part of the family. And I say, sh- you know, “Thank you.” You know? um, when I got here, um, it was hard, too, because he had to try to like really, really try to convince them as well. Um, it wasn’t like something that they would want to, you know, just do, you know? you know? So, um, it was very, very hard to get them to trust me. So, So, uh, uh, when they came and see me and they talk with me, and then they say okay, they’ll, they, they’ll decided to sponsor me. So with that, uh, I had a, you know, a little bit of relief because um, when you get here, it’s kinda like like if you don’t have a sponsor, uh, you don’t know how you gonna manage. You don’t know how you gonna… You don’t even, they won’t even let you out of the camp. So it’s like you’re just going from one detention facility to another detention [00:13:00] facility, but the only difference is at the campground here is much better because you’re not… You know, You know, you wear your, your clothes and you’re fr- you, you roam free, and then, um, you sleep in a place where, um, you know, you have mattresses. You sleep in a place and, um, they do, they give you like, uh, uh, three meals a day, too. So, but then the thing is that you’re s- you’re stuck in the camp if nobody comes to get you, and I don’t know, I don’t know about the people that’s been there. They can be there, They’ll stay there for, like, like, two, three months, and if they don’t have no sponsor, I don’t know what happens after that, ’cause I didn’t stay that long to, to see what happened to the people that, that don’t have a sponsor to come get them. You know? So it’s kinda scary, too, if you don’t have a sponsor to come get you, ‘ cause you don’t know where you’re gonna end up Niketa Kumar: Hmm. NC (pseudonym): But once I got a sponsor and, and, you know, you know, I came out, the thing is that the, it’s hard because once they, they get you out, it’s like, you know, you start to realize that, you know, they’re not your family, and then they want you to, you know, keep paying them and all this other stuff. And then, and then you have to like, you know, you don’t wanna like get into anything that’s not good [00:14:00] with them, you know? you know? you know. Mm-hmm. So then you try to go and find a place. So you kinda like just move out, you know, because you only there, you only allow, you know, they, you know, like, um, what’s the correct way? It’s like you can stay with them, like, like, but you only stay with them like temporary. Yeah. So then you gotta go find your own place. but the, but the messed up thing is that if you don’t pay them, they don’t really help you to go find a place of your own. So that’s when, um, um, I was talking to some of my friends in America, and I was asking like, “Man, it’s kinda messed up ’cause we don’t have any programs here. Like this country doesn’t have any programs that will, will, will help you transition, you know, into – Niketa Kumar: Hmm … NC (pseudonym): you know, the way of life in, in Laos.” And basically, I, I, I had to just try to learn everything the best way I can, talk to people, be as cordial as I can, and, uh, uh, and respectful as I can, and, uh, talk and ask. And, but I don’t know Laos, so I don’t talk to any of the Laos people. But fortunately there are some Hmong people here, so then I talk to some other Hmong people here, and I was fortunate to meet some people who was, who was willing to help me. Um, so I made some [00:15:00] friends. And although I don’t know the Laos language, you know, sometimes I ask them to go help me translate, then they would, um, if they, you know, have time. But it’s, it’s, it’s hard, like for a time, for a time in the beginning I was just like just staying out. Sometimes I stayed out all night. Sometimes if I find a place to sleep, I would, you know, s- you know, sleep at a guest house. Um, but then like it would drain my funds really, really fast because I had to, you know, pay like per night. And then some nights I’d just stay up all night. like, um, you know, like, it’s sad because for the first time like, um, felt, I felt, felt homeless, you know? you know? That’s, that’s the, that’s the correct term, I guess. I was just homeless, you know, just roaming the streets. And then I was thinking to myself like, “What?” I don’t know how to go rent an apartment or a place here because, um, I don’t have the connections. So you don’t know how to talk to people, and you don’t know who to talk to and ask. And, and a lot of times they won’t rent it to you unless they know that you can, you know, pay them. So, So, you know, you know, you have to, um, have [00:16:00] somebody talk to them. So when I have my friend and she went to talk to them and, um, find out that, um, um, the room was open, and I was able to, you know, rent it. then, then I started, um, um, talking to my grandma back in, um, the US, and then my grandma then found a, a distant cousin of ours. um, kind of I kind of reached out to them, they don’t live where I live. They live like really, really far up north. So I really talked to them, and then they started pointing directions like, “Oh yeah, you know, you know, we do have some distant cousins here in this, in this village. If you have time, you go visit them.” So that’s what I do. I, I would, you know, if I could and I have the funds, I would go visit them because they’re not gonna come visit me. You know what I mean? Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm NC (pseudonym): so yeah, I have to go visit them and show them that, “Hey, you know, this is me. Um, I’m here,” and, you know, um- basically like that, but, um, still like like transitioning is still hard because, you know, have to learn the language, you know, practice it, um, every single day and then learn the customs and, and learn how not to get in trouble and stay out of trouble. Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:17:00] It’s time to come back to Pam, who you heard from in the first episode of My Family. Pam also grew up in California and was incarcerated for 16 years. When Pam first learned that she could be deported after serving her time, she said her parents were shocked. They told her, “There’s nobody over there who can support you, take care of you. You’ve been here in America all your life. Why does ICE want to

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  KPFA - APEX Express

  APEX Express – 9.10.26- Reflections on the 25th Anniversary of 9/11

  Sep 10, 20261 hour

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Friday is the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11. 9/11 marked a turning point in American history when two planes were hijacked by extremists who flew into two buildings at the World Trade Center in New York and another at the Pentagon, and two thousand nine hundred and seventy-seven people were killed. It was the deadliest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor sixty years prior. Following 9/11, the US government implemented multiple pieces of significant legislation around curbing and countering terrorism and enemy combatants. Policies such as the USA Patriot Act and the Special Registration Program targeted and disproportionately affected Arabs, South Asians, and Muslims in America. Tonight on Apex Express, in recognition of the twenty-fifth anniversary, we are hearing from members of the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA. Several ASATA members will listen to Apex Express episodes about the impact of 9/11 and share their thoughts. You will hear pieces of shows starting all the way back to two thousand two and as recently as this spring. LINKS Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA Bay Area Solidarity Summer (BASS) Black Panther Party History SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. This is Miko Lee, and I’m introducing a show that is recognizing the time that we’re in. And as many of you might know, this Friday is the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11. 9/11 marked a turning point in American history when two planes were hijacked by extremists who flew into two buildings at the World Trade Center in New York and another at the Pentagon, and two thousand nine hundred and seventy-seven people were killed. It was the deadliest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor sixty years prior. Following 9/11, the US government implemented multiple pieces of significant legislation around curbing and countering terrorism and enemy combatants. Policies such as the USA Patriot Act and the Special Registration Program targeted and disproportionately affected Arabs, South Asians, and Muslims in America. Tonight on Apex Express, in recognition of the twenty-fifth anniversary, we are hearing from members of the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA. Several ASATA members will listen to Apex Express episodes about the impact of 9/11 and share their thoughts. You will hear pieces of shows starting all the way back to two thousand two and as recently as this spring. So stay tuned to Apex Express and reflections on the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11. [00:02:06] Arati: Hi everyone. Welcome. Can you please introduce yourselves? [00:02:09] Hafsa: Hey everyone. My name is Hafsa. I’m here from ASATA. [00:02:13] Balvinder: Hi all, Balvinder Kaur a Sikh community organizer here in Sacramento. [00:02:19] Priya: Hi, I’m Priya. I’m also an organizer with ASATA and a teacher based in Oakland. [00:02:23] Arati: We’re gonna start listening to our clips now. [00:02:25] Speaker 5: I can clearly remember my parents repeating, “Please don’t let it be a Muslim. Please don’t let it be a Muslim,” while watching the news. I didn’t process at age five the type of impact this would have on my family, but as I got older, those words stuck with me as I watched police outside our mosques and soldiers touching down in Muslim countries around the globe. [00:02:45] George W. Bush: Freedom itself was attacked this morning by a faceless coward. [00:02:50] Speaker 7: I got a call after the first tower had been hit. [00:02:53] Speaker 8: I was right here. My roommate was like, “Hey, man. Wake up. You should watch this.” [00:02:59] Speaker 9: My mom called me at 7:00 in the morning, and whenever my mom calls, I always think, “Oh, God,” you know? “What happened,” right? And my immediate reaction was, Bush has got his war now. [00:03:10] George W. Bush: Make no mistake, the United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts. [00:03:25] Speaker 9: Pretty much as soon as the towers fell and it was determined to be a terrorist act, people were talking about Pearl Harbor, you know, day of infamy and making all those parallels. And of course, there was that immediate fear of backlash against Arab Americans. But what’s the point of revenge? It’s not gonna bring the people who died back. It’s not gonna prevent future attacks, in my opinion. If anything, it might create the conditions for more hatred. [00:03:55] Speaker 10: It is heartbreaking when you hear somebody who’s not even a Muslim or Arab got killed in Arizona who just happened to wear this traditional clothes. [00:04:10] Speaker 9: Within the first week, I started seeing reports on the internet about hate crimes that occurred in San Francisco. [00:04:15] Speaker 11: Arab American Discrimination more than two hundred incidents of hate crimes. Six of these people died. [00:04:30] Speaker 7: My mom actually called me and she was like, “Shave your beard,” you know, like, “Don’t do anything stupid.” My partner actually from Urban Groove, is a Sikh, and he was in Pittsburgh at the time, and he called me up and he said, “I’m scared for us right now.” I can’t even go to the library. I can’t even go to the gym. People are looking at me funny just getting in your car and going outside. You know, at that time we realized the education that really needed to come to a lot of Americans that Muslim or not, these are not people that blew up the World Trade Center. These are not people that hurt other Americans. You know, these are our friends, our coworkers, our family. [00:05:15] Speaker 12: It took me a while to find my voice and publicly react and respond to the events at the close of 2001. Part of that has to do with the memory of how irrational Americans become during times of war. I didn’t wanna be on any blacklists, be monitored, stand out. [00:05:34] Speaker 8: One of the things that I thought was really ironic was the question the media posed to the, the public. You know, how could this happen to us? Well, kind of stop and look at the history of our foreign policy. It’s pretty evident in why something like this would happen. [00:05:50] Speaker 9: I didn’t feel like I was being disrespectful, and I didn’t think that I was somehow, like, less American for also criticizing the government. But then again, the appropriate response is that we all just fall in line behind the Bush administration, whatever they do. It doesn’t matter. Civil liberties are trampled. This is the appropriate response. You know, this is the way we show our patriotism. [00:06:12] Arati: So most of those clips were from Robyn Takayama’s 2002 documentary in which she’s using different community voices to explore her own discovery of what patriotism looks like. It starts with, like, a small cut from the 20th anniversary, and then the rest of that is from these series of immediate reactions and lived experiences from Robyn’s documentary. So reflecting on when this documentary was released, 2002, and where we are now, what still feels resonant? Does anything feel stale or stuck in time, or are there things that you’re still like, “Yeah, that’s really where we’re at now”? [00:06:43] Hafsa: I think for me, growing up with the Muslim community in Southern California, I remember 2002 being a very scary time as the people in this audio clip are kind of sharing. And I think now I don’t feel as stranded as an American Muslim in America as I did at that time. And to provide context, I was 11 years old at that time, and I could feel the fear from people older than me and, even my friends as we would go to recess, and we would think we’d get sniped down by someone who’s, like, looking out for us because we’re little Muslim kids. yeah, I think that’s something that I can definitely feel, where I don’t feel stranded. I don’t feel like there are, there is a lack of other communities who’ve been harmed who can also make bridges with us. [00:07:34] Arati: Yeah. Thanks, Hafsa. [00:07:35] Balvinder: Yeah, similarly, I was, I was a teen as well, probably 11. I grew up Sikh. My dad wore the star, a turban. I remember seeing it on the news. And I didn’t really register for me for about a little bit of time until, like, the first racist comment was made towards my dad or we heard about, the Arizona death. It wasn’t until, you know, Brown communities, Sikh communities, uh, Muslim communities were targeted, anyone who looked Muslim, right, And so for me, I think at the time, it took a while to fully register. But, you know, once it did, it was like, oh, this isn’t about it just being a Muslim. It’s like people are just perceiving anybody. And, as I grew up, I realized, the need for, communities not to say like, “Oh, but we’re not Muslim,” you know? And I think that was like a really strong push from a lot of the Sikh community organizers, reflecting back on it. But of course, you still have folks who are in the community who are just like trying to say, “But we’re not Muslim.” And that’s a, that was a problem. You know, I wanna call out that, that problematic nature, and I think the same thing happens today when we see it around communities who have different immigration statuses. and it’s like, oh, we might be X, Y, Z race, but we’re not. You know, we’re, we’re American, or we were born here, we’re a citizen. And it’s just like, but why are we othering ourselves? So I still see some of those similarities around othering. I struggle with it because I can understand from the perspective of, you know, some of the individuals trying their best, working hard, and wanting to not be targeted, but at the same time, like, it’s not the right thing to do. I think we’re seeing a lot more, collaboration now, I would say, a lot more shifting in the narrative. I know we’ve had a lot of conversations across, the Sikh community over the past two and a half decades around the problem with othering ourselves from other races and other, other identities. And so I, I think that’s one aspect of it, but I still see that same sort of nature, right? Like, um, when an attack happens or when there’s a shooting, it’s constantly like, don’t let it be a interracial identity or immigration identity, right? and, I feel like the media continues to fail us, like the narratives around people of color, immigrants, is just very dehumanizing. and somehow, white folks get humanized in all of the actions that they’re taking. I do feel like there’s a media component to it, and we have to call that out. The one thing that, you know, when one of the individuals had shared that they were like falling in line, I think about just the over-surveillance that’s occurring and the way that social media recordings and just everything going live in public, you know, the need to be vocal, but there is a sort of line, right, that we all know that we shouldn’t cross, and the fear of being seen as un-American. [00:10:15] Arati: Thank you, Balvinder. [00:10:16] Priya: I can briefly add on to what was shared. Something you said, Hafsa, really struck me that when you were 11 years old, even going to recess was something that created a culture of fear, and honestly, I still see that in some of my students. When there were threats of ICE in the Bay Area, my classroom was empty. I mean, like, 90% of students didn’t come to school that whole week. That culture of fear still exists, among, like, Black and brown communities, even here in the Bay. but we have made a lot of connections with each other as people of color in our organizing histories. But the culture of fear is still salient. [00:10:51] Arati: Thanks, Priya. Do you feel like there’s stuff, you know, a lot of these were current day organizers still 25 years later reflecting on their experiences. Are there pieces of the strategy that we still feel like are salient and that we want to bring with us and continue implementing in 2026? [00:11:06] Hafsa: I think the communities that reach out to each other, that’s something that’s still working out for us now. I remember the Japanese community reached out to our masjid because they had been interned. Like, they were in internment camps, and they knew what it felt like to be othered in America in a very vile way. And I remember learning, oh, wow, like, A) there’s a big Japanese community in Southern California, and B) they are so resilient that they care enough to reach out to us even though they went through all this already, and now they wanna show us or they wanna be there for us in whatever capacity. So I think, like, as we grow and go through these traumatic events, whatever we learn, there’s a resilience that we build when we reach out to other communities. [00:11:55] Arati: Yeah, absolutely. All right, we’re gonna move to our next set of clips. this is gonna be a little heavy, but there’s some really incredible stuff in here thinking about the organizing that is birthed of necessity, and a lot of the Sikh coalition’s actions in the immediate aftermath, and specifically Asata’s actions here in the Bay Area. [00:12:11] Speaker 8: At the end of the day, necessity is the mother of invention. On the day of 9/11 Sikhs in New York, where the Sikh Coalition is based, saw hate crimes occurring the afternoon of 9/11. Three members of our community were literally chased through the streets of Manhattan. The afternoon of 9/11, an elderly man was beaten to the point of having broken bones, and Sikh young children were shot with paintball guns. And so the night of, we issued a press release grieving against attack on the country and calling on a police to protect our community from hate crimes. Our first real action beyond the press release on the night of 9/11 was to create a website where community members could report hate crimes and other forms of discrimination that were occurring to them. And within that first month after 9/11, more than three hundred people logged in and, and reported acts of discrimination. Everything from, from people who had been shot at, one gentleman who was murdered, to beatings, school bullying, employment discrimination alike. And we really used the information there to get the word out to the media and the policymakers that we have a real problem that needs to be addressed immediately. [00:13:24] So I think, you know, the heart of the activism in that first month was really creating a space for people to report what was happening and then using that information to call for change. We were able to persuade the, the city of New York to create a regulation on school bullying where none existed before, and where school administrators are required to track bullying incidents and keep statistics on them. They have to ma– use all means they possibly can to take non-punitive measures. And that regulation protects one point one million students in the public school system in New York City, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, national origin, religion, and the like. We were just able to get the New York City mayor to sign a bill that raises the bar for when employers can reject a request for religious accommodation in the workplace. Post 9/11, Sikhs have been barred from a number of jobs, including city jobs, because of their turbans. And if you wanna work for the public transit system, you have to brand your turban or if you’re a Muslim, your hijab, with a Metropolitan Transportation Authority logo. And so we were able to get the mayor to sign a bill last week that basically bans most of those practices. And again, it protects literally millions of New Yorkers who work in the city from discrimination based on religion in the workplace. But at the end of the day, it’s again, a regulation that pushes back on the government being able to do whatever it wants and creates a space for anyone to enjoy those protections. [00:14:50] Speaker 13: So in the Bay Area, ASATA members distributed multilingual know your rights flyers and provided legal support in collaboration with other activist groups, such as the Arab American Anti-Discrimination Committee, the former ADC in San Francisco, the National Lawyers Guild, Council of American-Islamic Relations and the Progressive Bengali Network, and ASATA members provided support by taking down the contact information of the men standing outside the Department of Justice to register so as to notify families in case they were detained or disappeared, and also provided information about free legal resources. [00:15:28] Speaker 14: There’s a really moving testimony of a young Muslim girl from Seattle, Washington. Her and her mother were held in detention for, I think, nine months- Mm … without charges or anything, and her mother actually almost died while they were in detention. It was just such a traumatic experience, and I mean, we really need to let these stories be heard. [00:15:46] Speaker 15: I wanted to point something out, that the figures from May 2003 from the INS or BCIS say that the number of people registered as of May 11th, 2003, were 82,581. Number of people detained, and these are their figures, so who knows what the real figures really are, 2,761. Number of people still detained at that time, 158, and the number of people charged with terrorism-related crimes, zero. [00:16:19] Speaker 16: Reports indicate that some of those taken into custody were harshly treated. They were handcuffed, shackled, placed in cold cells without adequate clothing or blankets, blankets, forced to sleep standing or on concrete floors, hosed down with cold water, and denied adequate food and water. [00:16:40] Speaker 17: And I would like to ask for volunteers because when we monitor, when we stand here and monitor people, there are less detentions, there are less questions, and people get done quickly. Some people are afraid to go alone, and they can take a companion with them. If we want safety and security, we cannot buy it by terrorizing other people. We need to change our thinking. We need to change our ways. As superpowers, we need to start empowering people, not taking them away, not putting them in prisons, not detaining. This country has become so secretive. Secret evidence, secret detentions, secret deportations. Everything is secret except our privacy. So we need to really take our country back. [00:17:32] Arati: Okay. So that was a little longer and definitely somewhat heavy. but I think it’s really interesting to hear how people were talking about this, especially post 9/11, and how they were talking about the country in general, and then their work in specific. What things stood out to you from how our communities were able to spring into action immediately post 9/11? [00:17:49] Balvinder: I was a teen, so to me, as I learned all of the immediate action that was taken, it was really incredible and inspiring, so many different areas of it, right? Raising awareness around the detentions, trying to create that website. Working on school policies. Like, there was so much that was happening, and so much that continues to happen. Great to see community springing into action. I also struggled for so long in my early organizing days, being frustrated that these systems were not created for us, these policies were not created for us. And then when you learn so many of the policies were literally created against us- post 9/11, the over-policing, the over-targeting, it was just so challenging, right? Like, we have already so much, so many more challenges that we’re dealing with, and then here we have additional barriers to just kind of living a, a decent life here. But you know, still c

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  KPFA - APEX Express

  APEX Express – 9.3.26 – Beneath the Surface with Margaret Cho & Masaki Fujihata

  Sep 3, 20261 hour

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee is going Beneath the Surface — with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. Both artists have been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho — stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing. Masaki Fujihata — a pioneer in new media art.And here’s what they have in common: they’ve both shifted with the times… but never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them changed. Listen in to APEX Express Check out: BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18, 2026—Sunday, December 27, 2026 Masaki Fujihata website Choligarchy at Berkeley Rep, September 15-19th, 2026 Margaret Cho website Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges at Oakland Asian Cultural Center, September 11, 2026 7pm Artists featured: arjun-verma.com www.pezhham.com MazdakAlipour.com emanhashimi.com Show Transcripts [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Tonight on Apex Express, I’m going beneath the surface with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. I’m your host, Miko Lee. [00:00:57] These are two artists who’ve been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho, stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing, and Masaki Fujihata, a pioneer in new media art. And here’s what they have in common. They’ve both shifted with the times, but they never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them have changed. So stick with me. First up, my conversation with Margaret Cho [00:01:29] Welcome Margaret Cho to Apex Express. [00:01:32] Margaret Cho: Thank you. [00:01:34] Miko Lee: I wanna start with my question I ask most of my guests, which is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? [00:01:41] Margaret Cho: I think my people are Asian American, my people are queer, my people are all ages, my people are progressive, my people have hope for the future. That’s what I’m hoping. I think that’s it, and that’s who I am too. [00:01:56] Miko Lee: Thank you. You started stand-up so young in this very Bay Area, and I think you started at age 14. I’m wondering what’s your earliest childhood memory of being a performer? [00:02:08] Margaret Cho: My earliest childhood memory of being a performer was I was actually a singer. I was a singer in a band of children, and I was probably maybe five years old. We were on a show on KTVU. I believe it was called Asia Now, and it was filming in the studio and I wouldn’t stop waving at my mother, who was just off camera. And after the performance the band leaders asked me not to come back. Aw. I remember that because I could not stop waving at my mother and so I kept breaking that fourth wall. That was my first memories of performance. [00:02:47] Miko Lee: And what did that feel like to you? [00:02:50] Margaret Cho: I didn’t really get the idea. I didn’t really understand television exactly quite. I didn’t understand why we were performing. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t say hi to my mother while I was performing. I didn’t have a real comprehension of like even like rejection of what that meant or even performance or what that meant or television. So all these things that I come to learn about very well, rejection, performance, and television is my whole life. But back then I didn’t understand the importance of all those things. [00:03:22] Miko Lee: But there must’ve been some kind of zhuzh for you that you said, “Ooh, I wanna keep doing this,” right? [00:03:28] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I think so. Much later though, you know, I did perform as a pianist. I was a classical pianist. I was also a ballet dancer. So those things required performance, which actually would make me really, really nervous, I think because in piano you’re playing a classical piece. You’re playing Beethoven, you’re playing Mozart. So if you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. Also with ballet you’re choreographed and you’re in as a troupe. If you’re doing choreography with a bunch of other people- If you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. But with comedy, mistakes are a little bit more of, something you can gloss over a bit. There’s a little more control there, a little more room for chaos, which I absolutely need, I think, as a performer. [00:04:22] Miko Lee: Mm, this is interesting. You’ve already described some of the different types of performance that you do, and you’ve also done so many things in your life. But I’m wondering if there is a type of art form that still makes you nervous. [00:04:34] Margaret Cho: Music. I think playing an instrument in front of people, I think because when I was a child and would perform these recitals, I would be so nervous. There were a couple of times in recitals where I had to start over, you know? When you’re, like, eight or nine years old and you make a mistake and have to start over, and this audience is, like, hundreds of people, it’s, like, really mortifying. I still carry that. I play m- numerous instruments, and I really dread playing them in public. What helped me a little bit is busking, which I did quite a lot of over, over the years because when you’re playing out on the street, there’s a… I don’t know. It’s like people are not really paying attention to you, and therefore you’re kind of in this divide of I’m in performance, but I’m also kind of not. So that helped. In general, I refrain nowadays from when I do music, I don’t usually play my instrument along with the band. I usually just focus on singing. Even that is quite nerve-wracking. Singing and doing music still, even though I’ve been doing it really my whole life, there is something about it that, that quite, um… because when you’re singing, you’re actually also the instrument. So there’s a bit of more required. That’s why I always prefer comedy. Your quality of voice doesn’t matter because the music you’re making doesn’t have to sound pleasing. [00:05:59] Miko Lee: And when you were busking, what instrument were you playing? [00:06:02] Margaret Cho: Guitar. Ah. So I would play guitar, sometimes a six-string banjo, sometime, I’d play all manner of sort of guitar-necked instruments, which can go from, guitar to mandolin to a cello that’s, it has a guitar neck, so I can play- Ah that as well. So all those things, I cheat at everything ’cause I have a guitar neck. [00:06:21] Miko Lee: I love that. The improv just comes out of you in all different ways, I guess. [00:06:27] Margaret Cho: Yeah. [00:06:27] Miko Lee: So you have been a path maker, rule breaker in so many aspects of your life, from comedy obviously, and producing and starring in the first Asian American TV show, actor, fashion maven, author, rapper, podcast host, and out and proud queer role model. I’m wondering, what’s a career dream that you aspire to? [00:06:46] Margaret Cho: Ooh, well, I wanna be an old lady crime show, like Murder She Wrote. I wanna just solve crimes. I love, like, a British crime show, like an old lady solving crime. Like a Prime Suspect, like a Helen Mirren. I love that kind of genre of television, and so I would love to mature in that ’cause, like, it’s so interesting and also so rich and, I feel really drawn to it. So that’s something that I haven’t… I’m a participant in a lot of those types of shows. I’m on a show called Bull Trent, which is very much that, which is really cool. And then I’ve been on Law & Order, which is the ultimate, SVU is the ultimate sort of crime show. So I would love to engage in that genre more. [00:07:31] Miko Lee: Ooh, are you developing that on your own? [00:07:34] Margaret Cho: I’m not, but I am participating in lots of other people’s versions of it. They’re not out yet, so they will be coming, forthcoming. [00:07:44] Miko Lee: Coming soon, and then your own version starring you. Yes. The- Yeah … modern Murder She Wrote. I would love it. In what town would this be? In San Francisco or in- [00:07:53] Margaret Cho: Oh, San Francisco would be great. Yeah. San Francisco or, like, Marin. [00:07:56] Miko Lee: Oh, God. That would be really funny. [00:07:58] Margaret Cho: Sausalito. Sausalito would be so fun. You know, Napa Valley. You know, something, like, very, like, th- this community that looks very, like Saint Helena, like Calistoga, s- community that’s very quaint and peaceful and, like, kind of like foodie oriented and, like, very, you, you know, you think very upscale, but actually there’s a lot of dirty dealings going on underneath the surface. [00:08:20] Miko Lee: The wine country Murder She Wrote. [00:08:23] Margaret Cho: Yes, I love it. [00:08:24] Miko Lee: I would watch that. That’s fun. So you also have expressed your art in so many ways. Your body is filled with so many tattoos. I think you have over 70. Which of your tattoos evokes the strongest emotion for you? [00:08:38] Margaret Cho: Well, right now I’m in this, like, trend only getting art from Korean artists, and these are guys. People from Korea who are tattooing now are really the best in the world. They are the state of the art. Like, their eye and their talent is just so innovative. There it’s semi-illegal, so they do it under duress, you know, and they have to sort of do all these different things to do it. But their ability to just visualize things that are just, that seemed impossible, you know, these miracles on skin that they can do. The art now I’m really resonating with. There’s an artist now that works exclusively in Dancheong, which is a kind of the color scheme of Korean temple art. And so all of his tattooing reflects that. And so I’m working on a very, very large piece on my leg that is, all Dancheong, which you know, for me, like having had lots of different kinds of tattoo, like I had sort of Japanese traditional and a lot of American traditional, and a lot of just kind of different kinds of art. Now to just really delve into the art of my ancestors is quite powerful, and by being done by very young, very skilled tattoo artists from Korea. You know, so I get to speak in Korean to them. We communicate in a language that is shared, that’s ours, which is very different from the way that I’ve communicated with all of the other artists that I’ve had over my time as a tattooed person. So, um, yeah, tattooing for me, it’s, it’s all about Korea right now. [00:10:21] Miko Lee: And what inspired your first tattoo? [00:10:25] Margaret Cho: My first tattoo was done by Don Ed Hardy, who is a legendary Bay Area tattooer, also, an amazing guy and he was a friend of the employees of my father, who, my father owned Paperback Traffic, which is his gay bookstore just going in the 1970s. And so a lot of people were getting tattooed by Don Ed Hardy. They were getting full body suits in the ’70s and ’80s, and the, the, um, images, like, so on our refrigerator as a… When I was a child, my father would put up, um, the full body tattoos of these guys that worked for him. So that’s what I would see every day. Instead of, like, our graded papers or, like, stuff that you usually have on a refrigerator, it was photographs of completely tattooed people. Um, and that really stayed with me. And so when I was ready to be tattooed, and this is, like, 2002, um, my father’s employees and all of our, like, old friends took me down to see Don Ed Hardy, who was doing these body suits, and, he gave me my very, very first very large Japanese-inspired piece on my stomach and back. And that kind of started it off. I got the most painful, most difficult place in your body tattooed first, which is, like, basically your stomach, and your sternum, your chest. All those areas are really, like, those are the worst, and I got that over with. And so I realized, oh, I could actually keep on doing this. And I always knew that I would be heavily tattooed because of that. [00:11:59] Miko Lee: So your first one you chose really big, not just like a small something. You got a really big one. [00:12:03] Margaret Cho: Yeah. [00:12:04] Miko Lee: Wow. Yeah. Just jump in, girl. Just jump in. [00:12:07] Margaret Cho: Well, I just knew that was right, and I knew also this was probably, like, the only time that I would be able to get a very large piece from Don Ed Hardy, you know? Yeah. People know him, of course, from the clothing line- That’s right … and the sort of Y2K influence. But he is so much more than that. His influence on tattooing is really significant. That was towards the end of his tattooing career. He didn’t have many years where he kept doing it after, ’cause he explained to me that he absorbs the pain of people. Wow. And so he realized, like, that probably wasn’t so good for him physically as he aged, I was really lucky to get what I got from him, which is a very, very large piece and a very important piece. [00:12:51] Miko Lee: Amazing. And as you’re talking about your childhood and growing up in the bookstore, it just makes me reflect on how your childhood was so unique and so interesting. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering if today you were to make a television show about your childhood, how very different… With, with more artistic freedom. It would be so fun. It would be so fascinating. There’s so many more streaming options than just the three networks that we grew up with. Yeah. So, what would that be like for you to do a TV show on your childhood now? [00:13:23] Margaret Cho: I would love it. I mean, I would love to create that world, recreate that world, because, you know, we had the influence of, like, people who were doing a lot of very early body modification, meaning these full, full body tattoos, and, like, body piercing, which was such a different thing. I mean, in the 1970s we had the rise of Harvey Milk you know, and his assassination. [00:13:44] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. [00:13:44] Margaret Cho: We also had the devastation of the People’s Temple, which was all San Francisco people. [00:13:50] Miko Lee: Yep, yep. [00:13:51] Margaret Cho: It happened in Guyana, people don’t realize this originated in San Francisco and came from there. All the people who died were San Franciscans, and Oakland, Bay Area people. This is our people. My parents actually rented the recently vacated People’s Temple for my grandparents’ 50th wedding anniversary. Wow. Like, crossing the police tape. To go in and have a Korean party, and then my mother’s, “Lot of ghosts.” She saw all the ghosts. [00:14:19] Miko Lee: Yeah, I’m sure. [00:14:21] Margaret Cho: “Ghosts, ghosts, lot of ghosts. Well, ghosts don’t really do anything. They just make food get cold very fast.” You know, like that kind of a thing. So it would be a great TV show, I think. [00:14:32] Miko Lee: Ugh, I would watch that too. We’re talking about your new show, Choligarchy, which is gonna be at Berkeley Rep, and I read that you said it brings you back to your roots as a political comedian. Can you share more about this? [00:14:44] Margaret Cho: Well, I had the luxury of the Obama administration where I didn’t feel like I had to fight so hard to be heard and seen as a queer Asian American woman, ’cause I worked on the Obama campaign, I worked on, getting people registered to vote in 2008 in Philadelphia. I worked on all these different things with Cal Penn in 2008 to assure a kind of future where we are gonna have something different, and then we did. And then so I got to spend about eight years where I could do dance, I could do music, I could kinda like drift into these other arenas of work that I hadn’t been able to do because, before, had been, like, so much about fighting the Bush administration, so much about fighting what was going on. So now to be able to return to a thing that I’m very used to, like political commentary, where I’m really focused on using my voice to affect change and to create change, and it’s really profound, you know? I love doing this show. It’s got me thousands and thousands of death threats, which is also really terrifying and bizarre. I’ve always had a kind of very confrontational relationship with conservatives, but now it’s escalated to the point of, like, oh, I actually do fear for my safety. But I think that it’s worth it. The message is worth it, and I’m proud to do this show, and I’m very, very excited to bring it to very progressive Berkeley, which they’re gonna hear it better than anyone. I do think Berkeley is even more progressive than San Francisco. So it’s exciting. [00:16:27] Miko Lee: Well, San Francisco is filled with tech bros now, so it’s a very- Yeah … different vibe than when we were- [00:16:32] Margaret Cho: That’s right. [00:16:32] Miko Lee: growing up. I’m wondering, I heard you say about how different it was during the Bush regime, which is actually relatively tame in retrospect compared to the fascistic times we’re living in now. I’m wondering how different, now that you’re going back to the kind of political roots, how different is it from that Bush time in your approach to your comedy? [00:16:51] Margaret Cho: Well, Bush never descended into a cult. Bush never had the sort of magnetism as a person, to demand the cult-like sort of atmosphere that sort of exists now, where we have a leader who will gladly let all of his followers be on a decoy plane while he rushes away in a catering van. We think the decoy plane, that’s really America. Like, the decoy– we are all, as a nation, on the decoy plane. He’s happily content to let us all die to ensure his safety. It’s like they’re, and they’re still gonna follow him after that. So that’s a cult, you know? This is a different beast than we’re dealing with just sort of patriotism or the idea of like xenophobia or the idea of wanting this kind of America that Bush wanted. Bush couldn’t create that because he was not a cult leader, whereas now we have a bona fide cult and cult leader on a path to destruction. [00:17:57] Miko Lee: So given this time that we’re living in and how complicated it is, I’m wondering, especially as you’re going on tour with this show, what brings you comfort and makes you feel connected to home when you’re on tour or when you’re away? [00:18:10] Margaret Cho: Well, my dog is with me all the time, so that’s really special. She’ll be there at Berkeley. She’s really, really amazing. I’m a big fan of social media. It’s connecting with people on there, and people are encouraging me through there. There’s a lot of points where I carry home with me. I’m also, at home on the road, because I’ve been traveling and performing for over 40 years, so it’s a place that I feel a great deal of comfort in. [00:18:35] Miko Lee: Because you mentioned social media, I’m just wondering, isn’t that where the death threats are coming from, though, is social media? Or are you getting them in— [00:18:42] Margaret Cho: Yes. But I’m also get, I get them on my phone. I get them, like they— [00:18:45] Miko Lee: Oh, you, they- Yeah … find your cellphone and contact you— [00:18:47] Margaret Cho: Yeah. [00:18:48] Miko Lee: directly? Wow. [00:18:49] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I get them, like, you know… I’m also concerned about, I’ve been doxxed, you know, they threatened to kill my dog, and I’m like, “She’s white. She’s one of you. Why would you kill her?” It’s kind of funny. [00:19:01] Miko Lee: But you don’t respond to any of these folks, right? [00:19:04] Margaret Cho: No, you can’t, because you just don’t know what… I always think about, like, Melissa Hortman. They killed her dog. I don’t wanna be another example of, like, MAGA lunacy. When you speak out and you are a symbol of

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  KPFA - APEX Express

  APEX Express – 8.27.26. Dr. Robynn’s Spitting Fire on Colorism

  Aug 27, 20261 hour

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Join Host Miko Lee as she introduces Dr. Robynn Rodriquez’s show “Spitting Fire.” Dr. Robynn speaks about Filipinx and colorism with Dr. Joanne Rondilla. LINKS Dr. Robynn, The People’s Professor SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. [00:00:35] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we get to hear the podcast from Dr. Robin Rodriguez called Spitting Fire, and I’m so excited for you to listen to it. Check it out, and if you wanna hear more, we’re gonna link in the show notes an earlier interview I did with Dr. Robin Rodriguez. So please listen to Spitting Fire with Dr. Robin [00:01:01] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: I can’t actually remember a specific episode when my parents or my Lola, who helped raise me, explicitly said, “Don’t stay out in the sun.” But I always knew growing up that staying out in the sun was something I shouldn’t do because being dark was something to be avoided. I remember being embarrassed by my mom who would bust out an umbrella on a bright and shiny day. “Mom, it’s not even raining outside,” I remember complaining. I hated the big hats she would wear or insist I wear, or the comments of, “You’re getting darker,” also in a disapproving tone. I remember, too, the high praises anyone with lighter skin was heaped, even when I didn’t think they were that particularly attractive. Or how if my relatives knew someone was going to be marrying an American, basically a white person, they would exclaim, “Oh, they’re going to have beautiful children.” When I brought home a hapa, a dude who was Filipino and white, I was told that if we got married, I would be improving the race. I’ve always known, whether I can remember being told, “Don’t stay out in the sun,” that if there was a skin hue to aspire to, it was to be light. [00:02:49] To be called mestiza was to receive one of the best compliments. To be a mestiza is always already to be beautiful. Of course, if anyone said I was mestiza, it was always qualified as mestizang morena. That is, someone who exhibits certain types of physical traits that are associated with a mestiza, like having a more pointed nose or being slightly taller than the average Pinay, but not the lighter skin of a genuine mestiza. So that’s why I was sometimes called mestizang morena. Still meant as a compliment. After all, I could still enjoy the privilege of being associated with mestizaje, but only partially So many Filipinas in the diaspora, especially those of us who live in white settler colonial societies like what we now know as the United States as well as Canada, so many of us share experiences similar to the ones I’ve experienced. [00:03:58] My dear friend and colleague, a fellow sociologist, Dr. Connolly De Leon, who currently teaches at Ryerson University in Canada, made this shared experience a topic of study in her book chapter, “Mas Maputi Ako Sa’yo,” I’m Lighter Than You: The Spatial Politics of Intraracial Colorism Among Filipina-Filipino Youth in the Greater Toronto Area. It was a chapter that was part of the very historic anthology, Filipinos in Canada: Disturbing Invisibility, edited by Roland Coloma, Bonnie McElvaney, Ellen Ethel Dongohan, John Paul Katungol, and Lisa M. Davidson, and it was published in 2012. Now, I’ve taught, uh, Dr. De Leon’s chapter, Connolly’s chapter, in my Filipino American experience courses in the past, and it’s always, always deeply resonated with my Filipina students. In Dr. De Leon’s chapter, she starts off with a quote that so many of us are familiar with in some way. She writes, quote, “You’re so dark. Yuck.’ My cousin would say to me in disgust as she would place her forearm beside mine to compare her light skin to my dark skin.” End quote. Dr. De Leon continues, quote, “As early as the age of four, as early as the age of four, I was taught to feel ashamed of my complexion. I did not understand what was so shameful about being the particular shade of brown that I was.” End quote. The shaming that Dr. De Leon and so many of us experience comes from colorism, which scholars define as the discriminatory treatment of individuals falling within the same racial group on the basis of skin color. [00:06:01] On this episode of Spitting Fire, Dr.- Doctora Robyn Speaks, you’ll actually hear less from me and more from yet another friend and colleague, Dr. Joanne Rondilia, who I recently hosted as part of a lecture series jointly sponsored by the Bolosan Center for Filipinx Studies, of which I serve as the founding faculty director, and the School for Liberating Education, my platform for offering Filipinx or Filipinos and ethnic studies courses that are often only available to those who happen to be able to get accepted into the four-year, often elite institutions where they are taught. It’s where I get to teach all of these amazing courses that I think all of us should have to the broader community. Dr. Rondilia has researched on colorism in the Philippines and the diaspora for over a decade. It was a topic of her 2012 dissertation, which was entitled Colonial Faces: Beauty and Skin Color Hierarchy in the Philippines and the United States. In her 2007 book, co-edited with Paul Spickard, entitled Is Lighter Better? Skin Tone Discrimination Among Asian Americans, she explores colorism as a phenomenon that no- not only plagues Filipinos, but Asian Americans actually more broadly. So now I’m gonna turn to Dr. Rondilia and her lecture entitled Don’t Stay Out in the Sun: Understanding Filipinx and Colorism. Go ahead, Joanne. Take it away. So happy you’re here. [00:07:44] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: All right. Thank you so much, Robyn. It’s, uh… Do you mind if I call you Robyn? Shall I call you Dr. Robyn? [00:07:50] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Oh my God. You only know me as Robyn. Okay. [00:07:56] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: I will call you Robyn, but everybody else, you, you are required to call her Dr. Robyn- … Queen Robyn. You know, that’s, that’s how. But it’s, it’s such a, a joy to be here. Um, you know, before we opened the doors, uh, Robyn and I were talking about, um, you know, what it is to be an academic and the type of language and, and spaces in which we share our research. And I think one of the things that’s really hard, especially for the soul of a lot of, uh, academics, is that we… it’s so rare for us to really share our research, uh, with the community, right? ‘Cause I don’t think of myself as a researcher. I think of myself more as a, a storyteller Right? And I think that that’s really, uh, when students- when I have students who refuse to, like, engage in research, I try to remind them, like, research is not… I don’t think of research as, uh, sort of like the white person’s, uh, uh, game. I think of research as something that is connected to us, um, and it’s our birthright. It’s our ancestral birthright, right? Because storytelling is our ancestral birthright, and that’s the lens in which I come into, uh, to exploring this issue of colorism. [00:09:15] So show of hands, for those of you in the room, I’m curious to know how many of you were told, uh, were, were told this: “Don’t stay out in the sun or you’re- or, or else you’ll get too dark.” How many of you were raised with that sort of mantra? Yes. Right. I, I almost feel like these words, uh, are so quintessential to the Filipino experience or the Filipinx experience. Like, “Don’t stay out in the sun or else you’ll get too dark.” And I’m someone who, I was born and raised on Guam, um, and so everybody on Guam is dark because we are always out in the sun, right? And my mother is very light-skinned. Uh, she came from a middle-class family from San Pablo City in the Philippines. My father’s from Lucena, and he ca- he grew up poor, uh, and rai- was raised by a single mother. And so m- there was this definite class difference between my parents, uh, but there’s also a, a skin tone difference between my parents. Like, my dad was someone who was very, very kuripot. He was very cheap, but he had this great love for my mother. Um, you know, and I think part of that was he saw her as like, you know, this, this wonderful, like, prize almost, you know. Because she came from a well-to-do family, and, you know, when they got married, her family did not want them to get married because, uh, he was not wealthy. But he was someone who, because he works on Guam as an engineer for the government of Guam, uh, and, and the US military, like that sort of… and, and he had, uh, I think in total like 13 deeds to his name. That’s sort of what eased my, my mother’s family into, you know, being supportive of their marriage. But there was… And, and on my mother’s side of the family, this is a family, and mind you, I love them very much, but this is a family that, um, values beauty a lot, right? My mom and my aunties were all some form of provincial, uh, beauty queen And so this is why me and my brother and my sister were always told, “Don’t stay out in the sun or you’ll get too dark.” Because the idea was you had to preserve whatever, whatever it was our mother gave us, right? Even though, um, you know, like, uh, you know, even though, like, members of her family say didn’t, didn’t necessarily find us attractive , you know, the idea was, like, you know, as children of this, this woman or as chil- as, as, you know, members of this particular family, you had to, um, you had to sort of preserve yourself. [00:12:18] So as a young kid growing up on Guam, I always wanted to go swimming, uh, ’cause my, my neighbors across the street, actually one of them, uh, represented the island of Guam, uh, during the 1988 Olympics in, in Seoul, right? So I always wanted to go swimming. I wanted to learn swimming, but my mother wouldn’t let me because I would get too dark And so that, you know, like, there, there was so much of our lives that were limited because of this need to preserve beauty. And this is how I entered the research, uh, the exploration of colorism. So very quickly, for those of you who do not know what colorism is, simply put, colorism is a looks-based or, you know, um, you know, physical look, a looks-based system of discrimination where light skin and Eurocentric features are favored over darker skin and non-Eurocentric features. [00:13:13] These discriminations typically occur within the same racial or ethnic community. Uh, the term colorism was coined by, um, the writer Alice Walker. And when she first started writing about colorism, she was talking about, she was talking about colorism in a very intimate way. She was talking about the way in which lighter-skinned Black women evoked pain, right, uh, onto darker-skinned Black women. And so this is where she comes up with this term called colorism. Colorism is intimate. It happens within the same racial or ethnic group, typically. And the reason why I say typically is because, um, in our society, we live in a very colorist society. So I’m sure some of you, and you can throw up reactions, some of you know people, may be related to people who say, “I’m not a racist. I don’t have a racist bone in my body, in my body. I love Black people. I listen to Beyoncé. Halle Berry’s my favorite actress.” Like, you know, they’ll go on and on and on about how they’re not racist. But when you look at the patterns of what they deem is attractive or, um, sort of civilized among, uh, the Black or African American community, they always resort to people who tend to be, like, lighter skinned, right? And that’s also a way that, um, colorism manifests itself. It starts in the intimate space, but it manifests itself in a much larger, um, you know, in a much larger sphere. So for, um, the Filipinx community, when we look at popular culture, right? And, um, I don’t know if any of you have heard of the show or are watching a show called, uh, The Cleaning Lady It’s a new show that was, uh, it just premiered last week through Fox. And The Cleaning Lady, the reason why this is really big for, uh, the Filipinx community is because the… It, it’s supposed… It originally was supposed to be a Filipino storyline, right? And it was a way to sort of introduce, uh, you know, Filipinx characters in the public sphere. But what happened was S- Shannon Sossamon, the actress Shannon Sossamon, uh, was originally slated to play the main character, who is an undocumented, uh, Filipina maid, right? But something happened during the initial table read, so they end up casting Elodie Yung, who’s, uh, French Cambodian. So they changed the character a little bit, but when you look at the setting, it’s set in Los Angeles. It’s really a Filipino family. And my argument when I look at popular media and colorism is that oftentimes in popular media when they’re trying to introduce Filipino, Filipinx characters, it’s done through the mixed race body. It’s done through a mixed race person, right? So for those of you who may be familiar with Shannon Sossamon, she’s mixed race. She’s a mixed race Filipina, but she’s very white-passing, and it’s usually mixed race white-passing or mixed race white-pleasing, what I call white-pleasing, uh, Filipinos that popular culture suddenly becomes interested in us, right? [00:16:45] And that’s what we see in a show like The Cleaning Lady. In the next few months, I think Jo Koy, uh, is going to have a movie called, um, I think it’s called Easter Sunday. And again, Jo Koy, very Filipino, right? It, it’s ingrained in his comedy. But what makes, what allows his fame to happen in the United States is that he’s very white-passing and white-pleasing, very different from someone like a Rex Navarette, whose career is much longer, right, than someone like a Jo Koy, right? So there’s definitely colorism at play, right? But when we’re looking at the intimate spaces, the way colorism plays out in the Filipinx community, it’s the lighter skinned Filipino discriminating against the darker skinned Filipino. In the Asian American community, it’s the Chinese person discriminating against the, the Cambodian person, right? So there, there’s these different levels of, of colorism at play. Colorism, um… It’s important to know that colorism is the discriminatory system that makes anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism exist. It actually maintains anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism. And the reason why this is important is, one, when we look at anti-Black racism, and you, you’re hearing this a lot, you know, um, either in academic circles or even in, uh, sort of, um, more popular conversations. I feel that it’s important to talk about anti-Black racism in conjunction with anti-Indigenous racism because they happen hand in hand. And when we look at the founding of the United States, for example, the founding of this country happens through the genocide of Indigenous peoples as well as the enslavement of African peoples. So they’re not separate. They come together. And so when we’re looking at colorism, the system of colorism, right? Colorism is what, is what allows anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism to exist Um, what makes, um… And, and, and we see this through the different, uh, colonial periods of the Philippines. There’s something very distinct about colorism in the Filipinx community, and it really has to do with our, um, our, our colonial history. [00:19:25] And so on the worksheet, there’s just a very sort of like quick and dirty kind of list of like these three major periods of colonization in the Philippines. What I really wanna ta- uh, point to is the role of the Chinese throughout these historical periods in the Philippines. Because, um, typically when you talk about colorism, uh, colorism is most prevalent in, um, the African American community and the Black diaspora. But there’s something very distinct about Filipinx colorism, and it’s that our notion of lightness is defined by Eurocentric standards of beauty, right? And this is because of Spanish colonization. But it’s also defined by Chinese standards of beauty or East Asian standards of beauty, and this is because of the positioning of the Chinese throughout these colonial periods. Because the Chinese, um, historically were the, um, were the merchant class, they were often elevated above indigenous Filipinos, right? And so that’s why today in the Philippines when you see people who are in power and you look at the mixed race or mestizo, you know, uh, the mixed race people who are in power in the Philippines, they’re often, uh, mixed race Chinese, right? And that’s because of the, the legacy and the presence of Chinese in the Philippines. And so it’s, um, it’s, it’s the history of the Chinese in the Philippines, th- these notions of Chinese lightness that really make colorism in the Philippines and among Filipinx very distinct. Uh, it’s a very distinct conversation. [00:21:14] Um, uh, I wanted to pause and say if you have any questions or if I’m going too quickly, feel free to, you know, put this in the chat, and I will try to address it, um, as I go along. Um, in– At the beginning of the talk, I asked how many of you were told, “Don’t stay out in the sun.” And for those of you who said that you were told this, by show of hands, how many of you heard this in the context of family? How many of you were told this in the context of friends or any other intimate, uh, setting? ‘Cause oftentimes these messages are circulated among the family. And so When w- uh, and again, like colorism, you know, relative to racism, colorism has a very… There is this intimate aspect because oftentimes how we understand our own value and our own self-worth has to do with the messages that are articulated in the family, right? So, uh, one of the interviews that I had conducted, uh, was this, with this woman who when I conducted the interview, this was in the Philippines, and she worked in the entertainment industry in the Philippines. And she, um She, uh, had talked about how her lola would address her and her cousins. So the woman I interviewed, very light skin, light eyes, light hair, and that’s why she’s an entertainer in the Philippines. [00:22:47] She’s a model, and at the time she was hosting a television show. And she said that growing up, her lola always called her Miss Universe, right? And it was because of the way that she looked. Her lola would call her cousin, who was, um, like Spanish mestiza, sh- so, uh, this person who I called Tyler, Tyler was Miss Universe. Her cousin was Miss Philippines ’cause she was mestiza, and then Tyler’s sister was Miss Cebu. So here, you know, like… And this is very blatant, and I’m not saying that all families are like this, but here you have this very explicit example of, a lola articulating the differences between these three young girls. Queen of the universe, queen of the Philippines, queen of the province. And in her interview, Tyler had said, “Yeah, it was very clear that Lola had her favorites, and it was in the way that she designated you in this spectrum of, like, these sort of beauty queen titles,” right? In another interview that I had, uh, conducted there, and this was an interview here in, um, the United States, uh, I- in the research I called her Milen. Milen talked about how whenever there was a dance or prom or something like that, there was this whole process of, you know, her and her brothers having to go to Lola’s house so that Lola could see, you know, what everyone was wearing and that there could be pictures. But what was very clear was, um, Milen’s youngest brother was clear… [00:24:29] You know, her words were, “He was clearly not a favorite,” and this was largely be

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  KPFA - APEX Express

  APEX Express – 8.20.26 – My Family Ep. 1

  Aug 20, 20261 hour

  Explore APSC’s My Family Audio Series A story-driven 3-part audio project about Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Southeast Asian families doing everything possible to breathe with ease and live freely besides the people we love. Created by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, and hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim, My Family seeks to answer many of the questions countless families in our communities are grappling with today. Mass deportation and family separation are fueled by isolation and silence. With My Family, we aim to dismantle both with stories full of heart, compassion, and an honest look at the tangled paths many of us take to reckon with the past, rebuild our lives, and make a new place home. Our deep gratitude extends to all the community members who shared their stories with us, even while painful to recount. Their commitment to creating stronger, more informed communities is unparalleled. My Family Ep. 1: How did we get here? In our first episode, we talk to Roger Viet Chung to bring APSC’s longstanding Restoring Our Original True Selves (ROOTS) program from inside San Quentin to listeners outside. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College and a founder and faculty lead of Restoring our Communities (ROC), Laney College’s program for formerly incarcerated students and justice involved juveniles. He previously served as the lead instructor and curriculum designers of ROOTS. We also speak with NC, Pam, and T. NC was deported to Laos this past year. Pam was deported to Cambodia three years ago, and T was deported to Cambodia six years ago. Music from episode 1, as well as related resources, can be found below in the show notes. If you are an impacted community member in California or have a family member who is directly impacted by detention and deportation, we encourage you to contact APSC at info@asianprisonersupport.com or our partners at New Light Wellness and the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants. Music: Somleng Tro Khmer by Satiya, a Cambodian Australia singer and songwriter Pka Kompong Thom by Satiya Resources: My Family Episode 1 discussion guide APSC Data Report on Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Asians and Pacific Islanders Asian Law Caucus legal resources and video explainers for Southeast Asians facing deportation threats Eddy Zheng’s story Transcript Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:00:00] All across the United States, ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, is terrorizing immigrant neighborhoods. Every time I scroll on social media, I see horrifying videos of children being ripped apart from their parents as they get shoved inside unmarked cars of ICE agents. You can hear the family’s cries for help, children wailing, neighbors and protesters yelling at the abductors. The scene is [00:01:00] pure chaos, swirling with desperation and fear. I notice I’m clenching my jaw as I imagine the trauma of the moment that will last a lifetime for these families. But the scene usually ends here, and not long after I scroll away, I’m met with another slew of videos of similar intensity. But what happens to the people after this painful moment? What happens to the families after the protesters depart? What happens when their loved ones actually get detained, get deported? where do they go, and what happens to those who remain? I’m your host, Michelle MiJung Kim, and I’m partnering with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express to bring you stories from families who are grappling with the impossible choices amid the cruelty and horrors of mass detention and deportation, stories full of truth, understanding, and lived experiences that are too often hidden or silenced. [00:02:00] Tony (pseudonym): Even though I don’t have no family and I don’t even have no family over there, and I don’t even know nothing about Vietnam because I left the country when I was 10 years old.” My dad raised all four of m- you know, me and my sibling all by himself. So just emotion and everything rush in, it’s just like, you know, heartbreaking. So every time, when my dad come to visit me, he always break down and cry because he just like, feel sad that his oldest son is gonna get shipped back to his country. Pam (pseudonym): My son bought a car for me. He bought a car. He’s like, “Mama, you’re not getting deported. I got you a Honda Civic already. I got you a car. I got a place for you.” You know how, that affect me when your family member bought you stuff be thinking they’d be coming home? Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:03:00] Every family threatened by ICE is different, with their unique traditions, memories, and inside jokes. But there are also fears and questions that every community being ripped apart shares, whether our families are Asian, Latino, Black, or Arab. For many Southeast Asians in the United States, there’s one other thing in common. Their families found refuge here in the ’70s and ’80s, fleeing unthinkable genocide and war in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. Most have loved ones who didn’t survive. The ones who made it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the United States. Upon arriving here, families were forced into impoverished and under-resourced neighborhoods. Parents who just lived through war and genocide never got the mental and physical healthcare they critically needed. To survive poverty and attacks in their neighborhoods and schools, some youth turned to gangs and [00:04:00] crimes. After serving their time, they’ve since grown up, transformed, and found their ways to heal. They are now mentors, parents, small business owners, homeowners, just everyday neighbors who, like most of us, take their kids to school and pick up groceries and call this country home. And yet, around sixteen thousand of these Southeast Asian community members are facing imminent deportation based on convictions from years, if not decades ago, and despite the fact that they already served their sentence. Today, California is home to the largest Southeast Asian American population, followed by Texas, Washington, and Minnesota. And these families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together? And their friends and neighbors are asking questions, too. How can this be? What can we do? That’s where these stories come [00:05:00] in. We’re taking a closer look at what happens to families after the headlines pass and the blaring noise quiets down. You’ll hear directly from people who are living on all sides of this nightmare, all trying to do what’s best for their kids, their parents, their loved ones. Welcome to My Family. As some listeners may know, the Asian Prisoner Support Committee based in Oakland, California, was born out of the campaign to support the San Quentin 3, Eddy Zheng, Viet Mike Ngo, and Rico Riemedio. The San Quentin 3 advocated for ethnic studies in the California State Prison, and in retaliation, the prison administration sent them to solitary confinement. Out of that struggle, they started the Restoring Our Original True Selves, or ROOTS program at San Quentin, which the Asian [00:06:00] Prisoner Support Committee continues today, teaching hundreds of people under the motto, ” No history, no self. Know history, know self.” Together in ROOTS, community members incarcerated in California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation prisons, or CDCR, learn immigrant and refugee histories, address intergenerational and inherited trauma, and build lifelong leadership and community skills. Many ROOTS alumni are now mentors and counselors in California, while others are working in reentry, violence prevention, faith, and other community organizations across the state. To kick off our first episode, we’ll start with some context from Roger Viet Chung. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College in Oakland, and founder and faculty lead of Restoring Our Communities, Laney’s program for formerly incarcerated students and justice-involved youth. He has served as the lead instructor and curriculum developer of the ROOTS in San [00:07:00] Quentin. A content warning for our listeners that in today’s episode we’ll be discussing war and genocide, inherited trauma and self-hatred, depression, and family separation. Here’s Roger. Roger Viet Chung: My name is Roger Viet Chung. Uh, I’m from Oakland, California, and I currently work for Laney College. At Laney College I instruct in the Department of Ethnic Studies, a range of classes that range from Southeast Asian studies all the way to courses like race, gender, and sports. In 2013, um, I had the honor and privilege of, supporting and facilitating a course for Asian Americans and others in San Quentin State Prison, and which launched me on a, a journey of understanding more about incarceration, the prison industrial complex, abolition, the way pipelines form. And since 2013, I’ve been deeply involved in figuring out how to work reentry, how to support those in custody, how to help people come home, how to help people on parole tell their stories. Um, [00:08:00] and so since 2013, uh, I’ve been working for a program called Restoring Our Communities, which is a reentry program at Laney College, where we support the reentry of folks coming home from prison, jail, juvenile hall and help them explore their post-secondary pathways and dreams. In addition to that, I also run our Laney College, a satellite campus inside the Alameda County Juvenile Justice Center, where, we work with, uh, young people who are interested in going to college, transferring to four-year universities, um, and, uh, reuniting with their families. Uh, I’m a Vietnamese American. I was born in, uh, 1978 and, born in the United States, my proximity to incarceration and the entire carceral landscape you know, was pretty distant up until I went to graduate school. Uh, when I was in graduate school in, um, the early 2000s, I heard a story about a person named Eddy Zheng, who at that time was incarcerated in San Quentin State Prison. We heard this story about how Eddy and two other folks were asking for ethnic studies programming at their [00:09:00] prison when there was a growing movement for education inside CDCR. Uh, we understood that, you know, that movement, um, you know, landed Eddy in solitary confinement, got him transferred, uh, to another prison. And I think for me, that was my first moment where as an Asian American, I connected both with this idea that Asian Americans were doing time, but also you know, it intersected with my field of study, ethnic studies. And so, that was probably my first moment where I saw myself possibly in the work. Michelle MiJung Kim: Before we come back to Roger, we had a chance to talk to Eddy Zheng about his fight for ethnic studies at San Quentin, the early days of APSC, and how he continues to support incarcerated and formerly incarcerated community members. Let’s hear from Eddy Eddy Zheng: Happy New Breath everyone. My name is Eddy Zheng. The importance of ethnic studies, Asian American study, [00:10:00] is really focuses on the long tradition of the struggles, that many of the immigrants and refugees, the people who came to this country, uh, for multiple reasons, right? Some of them came voluntarily, and some of them came as refugee because the forced migration as a result of the United States’ foreign policies, and then many of the push and pull challenges that came from other, uh, countries across the world. The long tradition of, of that struggle really is a internal one, right? The internal struggle is finding a sense of belonging in a foreign country or in a country even though we may be born here sometimes, there’s still this sense of being treated and being respected as an American versus a perpetual uh, foreigner. And for many of the people who were impacted by the criminal legal system [00:11:00] and by this type of oppressive foreign policy and systemic racism oftentimes people don’t necessarily get an opportunity to understand their culture and history that informs their identity. So therefore as even I was learning how to read and write and speak English and to eventually to become thinking critically I have experienced the power of when I was able to comprehend and articulate the connection that I have, right, with my ancestors and my culture and the history that informs my identity. Immediately, I was able to, find confidence and find that sense of belonging that I was not alone, that there, there was a long lineage of the knowledge, The connected point to, not only who I am as an individual, but then who I am connected [00:12:00] to, the rest of the humanity, right? I think when we talk about that lineage really ties back to the 1968 Third World Liberation Front, when students and people in the community, the activists that who stood up fighting for the opportunity to have curriculums and, or materials that really teaches a more well-rounded history around, the makeup of the United States of America, So the fight for the Asian American studies, women’s studies, and global studies was very important, as it continue to 1969 in UC Berkeley, and then also later on in 1999, where students are also facing threats of having ethnic studies and Asian American studies eliminated, from the university curriculum, right? So I have experienced all those lineage of struggles to fight for what the basic academic right, for people [00:13:00] to learn about each other’s culture and history and how that historically has been continued to also trying to erase history. when I was in San Quentin State Prison, then once I was able to start to become a thinker, then I realized especially after September 11, the scapegoating of people of color, scapegoating of people that who came from other countries is perpetuated within the prison industrial complex, myself and three of my friends, we were advocating for, uh, the opportunity to be able to, uh, engage, in this process of, Asking to have Asian American studies or ethnic studies within the prison college program, And so that, that was when we signed a proposal, you know, advocating not only for the opportunity, to study, Asian American histories a- and cultures, but other people’s culture and [00:14:00] histories at the same time, and then also honoring the prisoners’ rights, right? To choose, what we want to learn and how we participate in the decision-making process within the volunteer-ran college program in the San Quentin State Prison. The outcome was the three of my friends who signed the proposal you know, Mike Ngo Rico Riemedio we were, uh, put into solitary confinement uh, for signing that proposal. And then my other friend that, who signed the proposal, Stephen Liebb, you know, even though he didn’t go to solitary confinement, that he, but he was punished as a result of signing the proposal. That’s when the forming of an unexpected Asian American movement, right, in the Bay Area, which is the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, where volunteers and activists that who have heard of the struggles, of the activism inside San Quentin advocas- in advocacy for Asian American studies, ethnic studies, and prisoners rights, that they [00:15:00] came together to support us, you know, inside the prison system. And so it’s very interesting in that, the dynamic, uh, between, we want you to, uh, learn and we wanna give you opportunity to learn, but then learning and applying what you learn comes at a price, that’s where the importance of why ethnic studies of Asian Americans are important because it allow us to gain power, right? when we gain power of thinking, and critical thinking, then there’s this fear from the, the people that, who have power and don’t wanna share that power. And so that’s why it’s very important. So fast-forward to post-incarceration after… first of all, I spent 11 months, uh, in solitary confinement as a result of that advocacy in San Quentin. And then later on, uh, when I was finally released after, uh, being incarcerated for 21 years, [00:16:00] I’ve never forgotten the importance of, creating more learning opportunities within the prison system for those that who are still incarcerated. Around 2012, that’s when we, you we meaning that, you know, that’s when I me and members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, we started thinking about how do we go inside the prison and create Asian American studies and ethnic studies program inside, We were able to went under you know, as volunteers, we were able to go into San Quentin State Prison to participate, uh, in in this program called, TRUST. I believe the acronym is, uh, Teaching Responsibility Utilizing Sociological Training, uh, which is designed to transform incarcerated men, uh, from social liabilities into assets, right? So, Uh, while we were participating, we were able to get an opportunity to engage The participants who are [00:17:00] AAPIs to ask them if they are interested into creating a program where we’re able to, learn about our culture and history, And they all agreed that it’s important. After about, like, almost like a year or more of kind of like a collaboration, brainstorming, and advocacy from within the prison, finally in 2013, I think that’s when, we started the first cohort of the ROOTS program. The ROOTS acronym is Restoring Our Original True Selves, uh, which is, really came about as a result of the brainstorming of the prisoners, a lo- of many of the lifetime prisoners who were inside. Because they felt that along the way they have lost themselves, right, as they were trying to find a sense of belonging. So the goal is to, uh, use that as a way to heal intergenerational trauma that many of the prisoners experience when they came to the United States, and that ended up, making poor choices and then, [00:18:00] uh, involved in the criminal legal system. that’s when the first ROOTS program was started in 20, uh, 13. And then what is interesting was that when it started, I wasn’t allowed to go in to participate in the program that I co-founded with the people inside, it wasn’t, uh- Until the graduation of the first cohort of ROOTS, uh, that they allow me to go in to do a keynote speech, right? Because the participants inside, advocated saying that, “Hey, we would like Eddy to come in to be our keynote speaker at our graduation.” And so that’s when I was able to go in and really, experience this fruition of all the advocacy. seeing many of those leaders and participants graduating from the first year of the ROOTS program really solidified why an Asian American study is so important, right? It really focuses on, uh, for the participant to [00:19:00] learn about the connection the, to the ancestors and the culture and, and the history. I mean, That sense of belonging they had lost along the way or for many was not able to learn in traditional economic environment, and then part of this is also even though the curriculum focused Asian American studies, but then it also connects to other people’s colors of histories and how the intersection of that of that experience domestically, internationally, are connected to the same systems of oppression in, in that space. I think what, what is also important is that once they were able to learn about their own culture and history, they inform their identity. They’re able to also learn about other people’s history, other people’s culture that inform their identities. So immediately there’s opportunity to, humanize each other And so that’s why this is so important that we must engage in the collective learning [00:20:00] process that allow us the opportunity for collective healing. And when the collective learning, collective healing is invested and engaged in racial solidarity, that’s how we can embark on this journey of collective liberation. The ROOTS program is the first ever Asian American studies e

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