Leadership Limbo

This is Leadership Limbo —a podcast aimed at helping leaders embrace the discomfort and power of leading themselves and others in the midst of it all. We blend real insight with practical tools to help you lead with self-awareness, purpose, and influence—wherever you are on your leadership journey. Learn more about the work both Josh and John to support leaders by visiting our websites: John Clark, Founder of Best Days Consulting: bestdaysconsulting.org Josh Hugo, Founder of PIQ Strategies: piqstrategies.com

Leadership Limbo is a education podcast hosted by Josh Hugo and John Clark, with 54 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80.

Josh Hugo and John Clark hosts Leadership Limbo, a education show with 54 episodes published.

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  Episode #55

  Brooke MacLean | Building a High-Performing Culture Through Courage, Play, and Trust

  Sep 29, 202658 min

  Connect With Brooke MacLean Learn more about Brooke and her team at Marketwake , and follow Brooke on Instagram at @brookebmaclean . Episode Overview What happens when leaders give people both the structure to feel secure and the freedom to be creative? In this episode, Josh Hugo and John Clark sit down with Brooke MacLean, CEO of Marketwake, an award-winning digital marketing agency recognized for its rapid growth and workplace culture. Brooke shares how she built Marketwake around two intentionally balanced values: service and courage. Service without courage can produce a culture of people-pleasing. Courage without service can lose sight of the people affected by a decision. Together, the two values help Brooke’s team serve clients well, stand behind their expertise, and have necessary conversations before avoided discomfort becomes larger chaos. Brooke also discusses the self-awareness required to grow a business, why leaders need help and honest reflection, and how their behavior travels through an organization. The way an executive treats the leadership team influences how managers treat employees and ultimately how employees treat clients. The conversation then explores play as a leadership practice rather than a workplace perk. At Marketwake, play creates room for curiosity, connection, experimentation, and recovery from demanding work. Brooke explains how clear processes and boundaries make that freedom possible: the organization builds a dependable framework around the work while preserving a creative playground within it. Brooke also offers her perspective on masculine and feminine leadership styles, describing the value of balancing order, systems, and clarity with intuition, relationships, creativity, and openness. Her approach challenges leaders to create workplaces where people can take meaningful risks, reveal more of themselves, and do exceptional work without pretending to be perfectly polished. Key Takeaways Service and courage work best as counterweights. Service keeps leadership connected to people, while courage allows leaders to set boundaries, challenge ideas, and stand behind their expertise. Courage is not simply impulsive bravery. It often requires slowing down, acknowledging fear, and choosing to act despite discomfort. Growing a company can expose a leader’s weaknesses and blind spots. Leadership development requires reflection, support, and a willingness to ask for help. The behavior modeled at the top of an organization travels through managers, employees, and eventually to clients. Leaders encounter chaos they create, chaos that happens to them, and chaos they produce by avoiding necessary action. Avoided conversations can have the longest and most damaging impact. Feelings at work can provide useful information. Curiosity can reveal whether someone is experiencing a passing emotion or responding to a deeper, solvable problem. Play is not forced fun or an office perk. It is a disposition that creates space for curiosity, creativity, connection, and experimentation. People are more willing to take risks when they know they have a safe and dependable place to return to. Freedom works best within a clear framework. Strong processes around the work can make greater creativity possible within it. Leaders can balance traditionally masculine qualities such as order and structure with traditionally feminine qualities such as intuition, connection, and openness. Brooke describes these as leadership energies rather than gender-based traits. Timestamped Chapters 00:00 – Welcoming Brooke MacLean and Bear 03:12 – The Story and Vision Behind Marketwake 06:02 – Balancing Service With Courage 11:55 – How Growing a Business Changes the Leader 14:24 – Asking for Help and Developing Leadership 19:36 – Three Types of Chaos Leaders Face 25:23 – Why Feelings Belong in the Workplace 27:39 – Building a Culture of Grace and Authenticity 31:13 – Play as a Leadership Practice 39:19 – Creating Safety for Risk and Creativity 42:48 – Masculine and Feminine Leadership Styles 48:42 – Building Structure Around the Creative Process 51:04 – Brooke’s Vision for Marketwake Listener Homework Where does your team need more structure and where could greater freedom produce better work? Resources Referenced Marketwake Brooke MacLean on Instagram How Children Succeed by Paul Tough A Failure of Nerve by Edwin H. Friedman Mel Robbins Jay Shetty Ulysses by James Joyce

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  Episode #54

  Adaptable Leadership: How to Change Your Mind Without Losing Credibility

  Sep 22, 202645 min

  Help Us Name the Leadership Limbo Community What should Leadership Limbo listeners be called? Cast your vote here . Episode Overview Can leaders change their minds without appearing indecisive? And how can a team remain adaptable without allowing flexibility to become disorder? In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark explore the tension between adaptability and structure. New managers can feel pressure to provide confident answers and remain consistent—even when new information suggests a different direction. Holding tightly to an outdated decision, however, can damage trust more than openly acknowledging that circumstances have changed. Adaptable leadership is not about following every new idea or responding to whichever opinion is loudest. It means remaining committed to clear values, outcomes, and decision-making principles while being willing to reconsider the approach used to get there. Josh and John discuss why managers no longer need to be the sole source of expertise, how structure can create the conditions for meaningful flexibility, and why teams often need to imitate effective practices before they are prepared to innovate. Through examples from coaching, teaching, hospitality, and other unpredictable environments, they show how thoughtful order can help people respond more effectively when circumstances change. The challenge is not choosing between certainty and flexibility. It is learning what should remain steady, what can change, and how to communicate the difference clearly. Key Takeaways Adaptability can be a principled leadership position rather than a sign of indecision. Changing your mind in response to better information can strengthen credibility, especially when you explain what changed and why. A manager’s role is not simply to provide every answer. It also includes creating the conditions for people to contribute expertise, evaluate information, and make sound decisions together. Flexibility without clear values, responsibilities, or decision-making authority can become chaos. Structure can make adaptability possible by giving people a dependable foundation from which to respond to changing circumstances. Teams may need to imitate and develop fluency with foundational practices before they are ready to innovate effectively. Leaders should remain committed to the problem they are trying to solve without becoming permanently attached to one solution. Reflection helps leaders recognize when they are being too rigid, changing direction too quickly, or avoiding a necessary decision. Timestamped Chapters 00:00 – Welcoming the Limboans and Revisiting the Audience Poll 03:16 – Why Adaptability Matters in Leadership 08:00 – Moving From Expert to Manager 10:30 – Changing Your Mind Without Losing Credibility 14:00 – Balancing Flexibility With Principles and Order 22:40 – Why Structure Makes Adaptability Possible 29:15 – Imitate Before You Innovate 33:50 – Planning to Be Adaptable 39:35 – What Principled Adaptability Sounds Like 43:05 – Listener Homework Listener Homework Ask yourself: How adaptable am I and is that adaptability grounded in enough structure, clarity, and principle to produce the outcome my team needs?

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  Episode #53

  How to Give Feedback Without Making Every Conversation a Big Deal

  Sep 15, 202655 min

  Episode Overview Not every piece of feedback needs to become a difficult conversation, but some situations require more preparation, care, and directness. In the third episode of their series on feedback and difficult conversations, Josh Hugo and John Clark explore how leaders can recognize what a situation actually calls for. The goal is not to treat every concern like a major confrontation or avoid meaningful conversations until problems escalate. It is to choose the lightest approach that responsibly addresses the issue. Josh and John discuss how timely, specific, and actionable feedback can keep everyday issues small. They also examine what changes when a pattern develops, the stakes increase, or the impact becomes too significant for a quick exchange. For higher-stakes conversations, thoughtful preparation matters. Leaders need to clarify the central issue, consider the outcome they hope to create, gather specific observations, ask genuine questions, and examine their own contribution to the situation. The conversation may still be uncomfortable, but it can remain direct, calm, and respectful. Ultimately, effective leadership means learning to distinguish between an ordinary feedback moment and a conversation that deserves more deliberate preparation. Key Takeaways Not every feedback situation needs to become a difficult conversation. Leaders should use the lightest form of conversation that can responsibly address the issue. Everyday feedback is most useful when it is timely, specific, focused on observable behavior, and connected to a practical next step. Feedback also includes reinforcing strengths and helping people recognize what they are doing well. A pattern, greater complexity, higher stakes, or more significant impact may indicate that a conversation requires additional preparation. Preparing for a difficult conversation includes clarifying the core message, identifying specific observations, considering the desired outcome, and reflecting on your own role in the situation. Genuine questions can help the other person examine the situation and its impact for themselves. The other person does not have to agree with every piece of feedback for the conversation to be worthwhile. Reflecting afterward can help leaders improve future conversations and identify feedback that could prevent similar issues from escalating. Timestamped Chapters 00:00 – Feedback and Difficult Conversations 07:30 – Not Every Issue Needs a Big Conversation 14:30 – Choosing the Right Level of Response 21:00 – Making Everyday Feedback Useful 28:30 – Reinforcing Strengths and Encouraging Action 35:30 – When the Stakes Require More Preparation 43:00 – Staying Direct, Calm, and Specific 49:30 – Learning From Difficult Conversations 53:30 – Addressing Issues Before They Escalate Listener Homework Consider one conversation you have been postponing. Does it require careful preparation, or could a timely, straightforward piece of feedback address it now?

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  Episode #52

  If Every Feedback Conversation Feels Difficult, It’s Time to Rethink Your Approach

  Sep 8, 202640 min

  VOTE! Help Name the Leadership Limbo Community What should we call Leadership Limbo listeners? Help us settle the debate by voting for your favorite or suggesting something better. Vote here Episode Overview When does a message require a carefully prepared difficult conversation, and when is it simply feedback that needs to be shared? In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark revisit their previous discussion about feedback and difficult conversations. After recognizing that they were approaching the topic from different angles, they explore the useful tension between those perspectives. John emphasizes that leaders often make routine feedback harder by categorizing every corrective message as difficult, courageous, or radical. Josh focuses on the tools, preparation, and emotional maturity leaders need when a conversation genuinely carries higher stakes. Together, they examine how leaders can better assess what a particular moment requires. The conversation explores three considerations: the actual stakes of the message, the leader’s tolerance for anxiety, and the feedback culture surrounding the relationship or team. Josh and John challenge listeners to question whether a conversation is truly high stakes or whether anxiety is causing them to catastrophize an ordinary opportunity for feedback. They also consider the relationship between feedback and trust. Leaders often believe they must establish trust before raising a concern, but thoughtfully offered feedback may be one of the ways trust is built. When feedback is grounded in care, connection, and another person’s development, it can strengthen a relationship rather than threaten it. Finally, Josh and John discuss how managers and individual contributors can help create cultures where feedback becomes more normal. Leaders can establish shared expectations and practices, while anyone on a team can begin by genuinely seeking feedback and demonstrating a willingness to receive it. The goal is not to create a perfect formula for categorizing every conversation. It is to help leaders become more conscious of the stakes, their own anxiety, and the culture they are helping create before deciding how to engage. Key Takeaways Not every corrective message is a difficult conversation. Some moments are opportunities for timely, ordinary feedback. Some conversations genuinely carry higher stakes and require greater preparation, care, and deliberateness. Leaders should examine the actual stakes instead of automatically assuming a conversation will create conflict or relational harm. Timely feedback can build trust. Leaders do not always need to wait until trust is fully established before engaging honestly. Small conversations are more likely to remain small when they happen early. A leader’s anxiety can influence whether routine feedback feels like a major confrontation. Acute anxiety is a normal part of facing an uncomfortable moment. Chronic anxiety can make many ordinary interactions feel threatening or difficult. The other person’s anticipated reaction should not determine whether necessary feedback is offered. Leaders are responsible for managing their own anxiety and bringing a calm, non-anxious presence. Recognizing your part in a situation is different from assuming everything is your fault or deciding you are unqualified to offer feedback. Feedback should be grounded in care, connection, development, and the larger purpose the people involved are trying to achieve. Team leaders can establish shared expectations for giving and receiving feedback. Individual contributors can influence the culture by actively seeking feedback and receiving it thoughtfully. Timestamped Chapters 00:00 – Welcome and Opening Conversation 04:33 – Listener Feedback and the Leadership Limbo Community 05:32 – Revisiting the Previous Difficult-Conversations Episode 06:36 – Two Different Perspectives on Feedback 07:43 – When Every Corrective Message Feels Difficult 09:21 – Feedback, Conflict, and Difficult Conversations 10:47 – Why Timely Feedback Helps Small Issues Stay Small 12:15 – Can Feedback Be What Builds Trust? 14:26 – Assessing Feedback Versus a Difficult Conversation 16:32 – Why There Is No Perfect Formula 17:41 – Considering and Challenging the Stakes 21:13 – Charting Feedback and Difficult Conversations 22:37 – Understanding Your Anxiety Threshold 25:33 – When Chronic Anxiety Makes Everything Feel Difficult 26:20 – Bringing a Non-Anxious Presence 28:20 – Responsibility Versus Self-Criticism 30:19 – Grounding Feedback in Care and Connection 32:22 – Building a Culture of Feedback 35:18 – Creating a Feedback Culture From the Middle 36:04 – Questions for Assessing the Conversation 38:54 – Final Reflections and Listener Homework Listener Homework Create two columns labeled “Feedback” and “Difficult Conversation.” Consider the messages or conversations you anticipate having this week and place each one in the appropriate column. Notice whether most of them land on one side. Then challenge your assumptions by considering the actual stakes, your anxiety about the conversation, and the feedback culture around you.

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  Episode #51

  Difficult Conversations: From Everyday Feedback to Higher-Stakes Messages

  Sep 1, 202648 minS1

  Episode Overview Not every piece of feedback needs to become a difficult conversation—but some messages genuinely require courage, preparation, and care. In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark explore the spectrum between everyday feedback and higher-stakes conversations. John challenges leaders to stop inflating routine feedback into a major event. When managers normalize smaller, timely conversations, feedback can become part of the regular cadence of working and developing together. Josh examines the other end of the spectrum: conversations involving more consequential or unflattering messages. These moments may require greater preparation, attention to timing and setting, emotional composure, and an intentional on-ramp that helps both people engage productively. Their discussion surfaces an important leadership tension. Preparation can make a difficult conversation more thoughtful, but waiting for the perfect moment can also become avoidance. Immediate feedback can prevent unnecessary buildup, but not every message belongs in a quick hallway conversation. Josh and John also examine the difference between passive, aggressive, and assertive communication. Assertiveness balances respect with directness while creating space for both people to think, respond, and understand the situation more fully. The episode concludes with principles for navigating feedback conversations and behaviors that can interfere with them, including ordering, threatening, moralizing, quickly offering solutions, lecturing, placating, shaming, diagnosing, and rescuing someone from discomfort. Key Takeaways Not every piece of feedback is a difficult conversation. Leaders should become more comfortable addressing smaller issues as part of their regular working relationships. Some conversations are genuinely more difficult or consequential and require greater preparation, composure, care, and attention to timing. An on-ramp can help prepare someone for an important conversation, but it should not become an excuse to delay necessary feedback. Leaders need wisdom to determine what the moment requires. A quick conversation may be appropriate in one situation, while another message may require a more deliberate setting. Assertive communication is both respectful and direct. Passive communication can become avoidance, while aggressive communication can become insensitive or controlling. Humility requires leaders to recognize their part in the situation and remain open to the other person’s perspective. Preparation can help leaders declutter the message, identify useful questions, and enter the conversation with greater clarity. The other person needs to remain responsible for thinking about and responding to the message. Ordering, moralizing, solving, diagnosing, or rescuing can take that responsibility away. Emotional discomfort does not mean the conversation should end. Leaders can remain present and supportive without abandoning the feedback or trying to remove the other person’s response. Listener Homework Consider a piece of feedback you need to address. Ask whether it is routine feedback that can be raised naturally or a more consequential message that requires additional preparation. Then consider which behavior from the episode you tend to rely on when feedback becomes uncomfortable. Practice approaching the conversation with the level of preparation, directness, respect, and curiosity that the situation actually requires.

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