Management Blueprint | Steve Preda

Interviews with CEOs and Entrepreneurs about the frameworks they are using to build and scale their businesses.

Management Blueprint | Steve Preda is a business podcast hosted by Steve Preda, with 300 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80. PitchCentric scores this show on Booking Probability, Listen Score, and live audience signals refreshed every 24 hours.

Steve Preda hosts Management Blueprint | Steve Preda, a business show with 300 episodes published.

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  Management Blueprint | Steve Preda

  358: Stay Put in Your Convictions with Tanner Taddeo

  Aug 19, 202631 min

  https://youtu.be/jPTlkjF8M-c Tanner Taddeo , CEO and Co-Founder of Stable Sea , is driven by a mission to bring Wall Street-grade financial services to Main Street while embodying the principle Stay Put in Your Convictions. By combining blockchain technology, stablecoins, tokenized capital markets, and AI advisory services, Tanner helps businesses access investment opportunities, put idle cash to work, and move money globally with greater speed, transparency, and capital efficiency. In this conversation, Tanner introduces The Lionel Messi Startup Framework—Develop a High-Level Thesis, Talk With and Learn From the Market, Run 30-Day A/B Tests, Iterate Your Offering, and Stay Resolute With Your Convictions. He explains why founders should observe patiently, validate their ideas with customers, and act decisively when market opportunities emerge. Tanner also discusses balancing long-term conviction with continuous experimentation, unlocking 24/7 liquidity through tokenized capital markets, reducing friction in cross-border payments, and finding urgent “morphine” problems that customers cannot afford to leave unsolved. — Stay Put in Your Convictions with Tanner Taddeo  Hello everyone. Steve Preda here, and my guest today is Tanner Taddeo , the CEO and Co-Founder at Stable Sea , an autonomous treasury management platform that helps finance teams and global businesses access capital market products and move money around the globe to 40 currencies with the cheapest FX rates. Tanner, welcome to the show.  Steve, thanks for having me. Excited for the conversation today.  It’s very interesting that this is how you position your business because most businesses in your industry, as I see them, position themselves with low transaction fees, but really their money is made on the FX. So if you do preferential FX rates or cheap FX rates, that can be a very transparent way of getting business. So I don’t know if that connects to your personal why, but I’d love to learn about your personal why and how you manifest it in your business.  Yeah, definitely. At Stable Sea, we’re very mission-driven in terms of everything that we do. The team itself comes from Block, which was formerly known as Square. Yeah. And everyone on the team has been focused on building products for the real economy, for consumer use cases, for business use cases, et cetera, over the course of everyone’s career.  And so when we started at Stable Sea, our primary thesis was, with blockchain, with stablecoins, with some of the tokenized capital markets products like money market funds, bonds, equities, et cetera, that are coming on-chain, how can you really take Wall Street-grade financial services and provision them out to Main Street for businesses that need them the most? And so the why for Stable Sea, for myself, for the team, is really around helping businesses drive greater capital efficiency in their operations. And we service businesses in the real economy that typically make widgets or some sort of physical hardware devices, and they need to send them around the world.  We help them because we give them access to different types of capital markets products, so money markets and private credit and fixed-income products, et cetera. And then we help them move their money around the globe a little bit more efficiently than they could with either their state bank or their credit union or some third-party cross-border payments provider. Because our firm thesis has always been, if you and I ran Coca-Cola or a large organization, we would have the best-in-class transaction banks helping us put our idle capital to work at every point in time during the day.  If you and I ran a steel manufacturing company in Missouri, you typically have a checking account and QuickBooks, and that’s about it. And so for us, it was always about helping businesses grow, save more money, and then operate more efficiently with some of the new technologies that are out there today. Share on X   So that means, presumably, that what you focus on is more about the investment side of the business rather than crypto and blockchain, and helping people access financial products through the blockchain. Help me understand a little bit what you do and how it is different from what people can get from banks?  Yeah. So everything that we do, all the technology that we build and provision, is on-chain. So all of the capital markets products are tokenized. So tokenized bonds, tokenized equities, tokenized fixed income, tokenized money markets. All of the payment services and settlement services that we offer are through the use of stablecoins, and we can send that around the globe, settle it instantly, and then have low FX rates off the back of that. And then we have some of our AI advisory services.  But from a broad paintbrush perspective, at Stable Sea, you’ve got three products that hang off of our platform. You’ve got capital markets, you’ve got global settlement, and you’ve got advisory services. And then with all of that, we share a common architecture, and that architecture is built across many different blockchains. And then we utilize stablecoins and we utilize RWA tokens, or real-world asset tokens, to provision those use cases.  So everything that we do is stablecoin-native, but we don’t lead with that from a messaging perspective. And the reason we don’t lead with that from a messaging perspective is that if you and I ran a bakery here in Brooklyn, New York, and we had a point-of-sale terminal that just got offered RTP access from the Fed for instant settlement, the bakery owner doesn’t really care about the technology underneath it.  They just care, “Do I trust it? Is it going to get me my money quicker, and is it going to be cheaper than my current alternative?” How it happens, not very many people care unless you’re in the industry and you’re a builder, product manager, et cetera, and you want to nerd out on the actual mechanical nature of how the product works. But for us, it’s always been leading with the narrative of, what is the value proposition and how can we drive greater value to the businesses? So that’s how we lead. But to your point on what the difference is, with any new technological paradigm that occurs, rarely is it so disruptive in nature that folks can’t recognize it.  Everything that happens in terms of the innovation paradigm is typically you stand on the shoulders of giants and you make things incrementally better. And so for us, what we do with capital markets is, the first value proposition is that many businesses in the United States just don’t have access to a diverse array of capital markets products. So the first thing that we have done is just provision access, which is an innovation in and of itself because in the traditional markets, if you want to access a money market fund or a fixed-income product, you typically have high hurdle rates, meaning that as a business, you need to invest at least $10 million at the asset manager in question.  You need to hold that there so then you can get access to all these products. With us, you don’t. There’s only a $1 minimum to clear, so I think most folks can handle a $1 minimum. And then secondly, as things go on-chain, the value proposition there is that you have 24/7, 365 liquidity and tradability. And so what that means is that, just from a money market fund perspective, the interest accrues daily and it pays out daily.  So you get this interest that is dripped into your account daily as opposed to waiting for a month. You also have the ability—so let’s say that you and I run this bakery in Brooklyn. Let’s say that we close our business on Friday, and we’ve got $100,000 sitting in our checking account, and we’re closed on Saturday, Sunday because it’s the July 4th holiday. So we know $100,000 is just going to be sitting in our checking account Saturday, Sunday, not being put to work. With Stable Sea, you can put that to work in a tokenized money market fund because it operates 24/7, 365.  So what we see is businesses now that close their books on Friday can just do an auto-sweep into a money market fund, generate yield Saturday, Sunday, get back to U.S. dollars for their open of business. And again, it’s one of those things where it might not sound like the most revolutionary concept in the world, but if you can help businesses, especially in the mid-market, lower mid-market, operate a little bit more efficiently, I mean, saving an additional $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 a year is a big value-add to them in the real economy, right? If you’re a large Fortune 100 company, you probably don’t care, or it’s not as valuable. But for us, the companies that run on us, these small increments, standing on the shoulders of giants, a small derivation in innovation is actually really valuable for the end user. Share on X   Well, I think it is because, looking at the inverse of it, I used to be in banking, and I know that one of the biggest moneymakers for banks is float. Yeah. So it’s basically the money that doesn’t earn interest, which they have access to just because they cash the check a day later or make the wire two days instead of one day. And essentially, what you’re doing is you’re taking this money from the bank and you’re giving it to the company that actually should have it in the first place, right? Yep.  Then the question is, how are the banks going to survive if you take away their bread?  Yeah. That is the debate that’s happening right now. I think if you’re one of your G-SIBs, your major banks, you’re going to be okay. So the top 25 banks in the U.S. are going to be just fine, and they make money in tons of different ways, and you’re not going to disrupt that trust ultimately. In the long tail is where I worry because a lot of credit unions and a lot of state banks, they just don’t offer—they’re smaller banks, right?  So they’re not managing—they don’t have a ton of money by virtue of assets under management. So with the deposits that they receive, they need to turn around and recycle that because it’s fractional depository lending, meaning that if I have a checking account, I put 10 grand into it, the bank is then turning around with that 10 grand, making money on it somehow. And you have to think, how does the bank actually make money on that? Well, they typically make it through debt facilities, so mortgages, auto loans, student loans, cards, et cetera.  They’re putting it to work in high-margin financial products back into the economy. They’re not taking that and then buying some money market fund from an asset manager where they make 10 basis points and provisioning that out to the businesses, right? There, I think that we’re seeing a lot of companies move off. They’re taking their money from their checking account, moving it to Stable Sea because we can put it in these capital markets products.  I think that overall, that’s a net positive for the business because the business now has a higher degree of operating capital on hand that they can make money with. But by the same token, if the state banks and the credit unions don’t wake up and respond to this, their depository base will be, if not fully eroded, tarnished and diminished. And what that means for local community health, I’m not sure because banks do play a very important role, especially credit unions and local banks.  You know your local community the best, and so you lend back into that community with the deposits that you receive from that community. So there’s a cyclicality to it which has some poetry in it. And so it’s not apparently clear to me that some of this stuff is going to be a net positive. But at the same time, living in one of the most capitalistic countries and markets in the world, there’s a clear demand for this, and if the banks aren’t going to wake up and serve it, we’ll be there to help businesses do what’s best for them.  Yeah. It’s the invisible hand, right? You increase the efficiency, which will force the banks to also increase their efficiency. And yeah, the smaller banks might have to be more innovative. But they are more nimble, so maybe there are other ways that they can serve the community.  So I’d like to switch gears here and talk a little bit about frameworks. So this is a podcast of frameworks, and 350 episodes in, I’m always looking for some kind of a framework, shortcut, a mental model that you have come across or developed yourself that helps you make more sense of the world around you, get something done. It can be explained in three to five steps, something like that, which the listeners might get some ideas out of and be able to improve their businesses. So what comes to mind for you?  Yeah, two things. I’ll start with a high-level analogy and then go a little deeper. It’s the World Cup right now, so I don’t know if you or any of your listeners are following the World Cup. But if you watch Messi play, his playing style is a great analogy for startups. And whether that be a startup externally where you raise venture capital, or even just intrapreneurship if you’re inside of a big company and you’re on an innovation team, et cetera.  From the outside, it looks like startups are always building things and they’re always moving fast, et cetera. But in reality, if you watch Messi play, Messi really doesn’t move that much on the pitch. He just sits around, he observes, he watches, and then when a hole opens up and some opportunity opens up, he breaks for it, and then he goes and executes. But he spends the vast majority of time just sitting there, tinkering, observing, watching. And then if you’re watching him, you’re like, “He’s not working that hard. He’s just sitting around.”  And then he goes and executes. But he’s always observing, he’s always watching, and there’s a real learning in that. I feel like Silicon Valley, as it relates to startups, there’s this pressure that you always have to be building, you always have to be shipping, you always have to be constantly grinding. I think that wisdom is actually counterintuitive because you want to have a thesis in the market, and then you want to be able to test that thesis quickly. So in some respects, you do want to be shipping all the time.  But you don’t want to be working for the sake of work. You want to have a thesis in the market. You want to be building towards that thesis that will happen in the next six months, 12 months, two years. And then you always want to be learning and talking to the market because when that hole does open up, you’ll have the right product at the right time to go and execute on. So I think that's something that we have learned: being patient and staying resolute in your conviction that what you're building is right. Share on X And it can’t just be a gut feeling. It has to be validated by the market.  So we do a bunch of A/B tests every 30 days where we have an idea about a feature or a product or a direction we want to take it. And the thing is, if you can’t get five CEOs on the phone in 30 days to validate if a product is going to be interesting or not, then that’s a signal in and of itself, right? So for anything that we do, we always have a thesis on the market, and then we spend 30 days testing it. And at the end of those 30 days, we get some feedback.  The reason why we do these A/B tests, just to drill down into one level further, is that the idea of a startup or a product that you have in your head, it’s a living entity. It’s always evolving on the basis of who you talk to, what your team is thinking, what you’re reading in the market, et cetera.  And then you’re trying to take that living concept and plug it into a market. But the market itself is also living, right?  You’ve got regulations, you’ve got different macroeconomic cycles, you’ve got companies that have budget, don’t have budget, people getting laid off in different organizations. The market itself is living and evolving. So you have this idea that is living and evolving, and you have a market that is living and evolving, and you need those two things to stick together. And so for us, we’re always wedded to this concept that product at time A is not going to be product at time Z. You need to constantly be doing A/B tests to figure out what that right fit is.  And then when you have that fit, you need to double down on it and grow it into a line of business. But you also need to recognize that there are very few businesses in this world that have been around for more than 200 years, if at all. So whatever your original product idea is, or whatever the feature that gave you product-market fit is today, you have to consciously be aware that, “Hey, that’s not going to be the thing that gets us to IPO in five years’ time.” So you can’t be lulled into this false sense of security. You always have to be waiting, observing, testing, experimenting, growing, and then if you see opportunity, you strike.  Yeah, this is fascinating. Especially now, things are moving very fast with AI creating capabilities all the time for people to test products or to create capabilities that then get disrupted in a couple of months. So it’s interesting that you say that you have to stay resolute in your conviction. So there is a tension there. You build a thesis and you stay resolute, but then you’re testing and the market might tell you not to be resolute.  And then you also told me that companies don’t live forever. So how do you resolve this tension of being stable with your thesis and not letting your conviction be upended, but also being nimble in the changing market dynamics and everything to respond to? So how do you manage the tension?  Yeah, it’s a good question. There has to be a high-level thesis, right? So for us at Stable Sea, it is as simple as: In 10 years from now, will more finance teams and businesses be on-chain or off-chain than today? And so our high-level conviction is, in 10 years’ time, more businesses will be running their treasury stack on-chain. So that’s our conviction. We know, come hell or high water, that is going to be where the puck is going to be in the future, and we’re going to skate to that future.  So if you start with this high-level conviction that more companies are coming on-chain, that is what we’re building for. Now, how they come on-chain is a matter of debate, which is where the A/B test comes in, right? We originally thought it was going to be for payments. So we built all the stablecoin infrastructure to do global payments in 40 different markets.  Turned out to be not the case, actually. And then we started tinkering as we saw the data coming in and were like, “Okay, some companies are using stablecoins for payments, but there’s a bunch of inefficiencies. That world’s still going to take two or three years to wake up. Where is the wedge in the market today?” And so when we started experimenting with capital markets products, we found that there was this massive opportunity that businesses just didn’t have access to a diverse array of yield-bearing strategies, and they wanted that.&#

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  Management Blueprint | Steve Preda

  357: Lead, Guide, & Educate with Zane Keller

  Aug 17, 202626 min

  Zane Keller , CEO of Ducere Wealth Management , is driven to Lead, Guide, & Educate clients and employees by helping them solve meaningful problems and achieve their goals. Through personalized financial guidance and a culture of empowerment, Zane supports clients with complex financial needs while giving employees the tools, trust, and opportunities they need to grow professionally. In this conversation, Zane introduces The Turn the Ship Around Framework—Delegate Decisions to the Source of Information, Put the Right People in the Right Seats, and Remove Friction That Impedes Performance. He explains why informed employees should have the authority to make decisions, how leaders can remove barriers instead of controlling daily operations, and why culture must remain a priority as a company scales. Zane also discusses macro patience and micro speed, creating opportunities for employee ownership, encouraging intrapreneurship, and helping multigenerational families coordinate their investments, tax planning, estate planning, and financial legacies. — Lead, Guide, & Educate with Zane Keller Good day. Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint Podcast, and my guest today is Zane Keller , CEO of Ducere Wealth Management , with a vision to be the leading provider of tech-driven, tax-optimized wealth management services for clients through their advisory support, that every client’s assets, time, and relationships are prioritized. Zane, welcome to the show. Thanks, Steve. Appreciate you having me. So, Zane, before we jump in and talk about Ducere Wealth, I’m very curious about your personal why, and how are you manifesting it in the company through the company’s business? Sure. Well, early on, I knew I liked—one of my biggest passions was helping people solve problems. And one of the amazing things about being in the wealth management industry is you get to help people solve a lot of problems that are personal for them, and that’s their finances. It tends to be a personal subject for them, and allowing them guidance, support, understanding, and being a listening ear is what I find to be extremely rewarding in the business we have. But starting a company and having a team, and building that team, and building all the infrastructure and support and all of that, to me, the employees are as much clients as our clients are clients. And so it’s an interesting position that I’m in, where it’s a dual role of both looking at it from a standpoint of how do we help our clients with the day-to-day or yearly challenges they face, but also how do I make sure that our employees are empowered to deliver the right client service and feel that they can continue to grow and expand in their careers. So I just like helping people, and I get to do it every day. Share on X Yeah. Okay. That’s great. So when you talk about solving problems, obviously finance is a mirror for all an individual’s life aspirations, problems, challenges, opportunities, all that stuff. Your people are also humans, individuals, and they probably have similar challenges, so that’s a really neat mosaic there. So what is most challenging in building a wealth management firm like that? I think the most challenging thing is all of the decisions are on you. And when I talk to other business leaders, there isn’t a roadmap, there isn’t a manual in terms of how people build their businesses, build their teams, and a lot of it is a balance of both trusting your instinct and what your background and lessons have been, as well as trusting those that you have brought in to help build the enterprise. I was fortunate that I get to work with my dad, who had gone through this venture before, and we’ve gotten a chance to partner together and build it from the ground up. We went from a year ago, I had to order two laptops on Amazon, get a URL from GoDaddy, and start from scratch. And, you know, a year later, we find ourselves with 14 employees, an office in Newport, an office in Las Vegas, $600 million in assets under management, and continuing to want to grow, and being fortunate that we have a tremendous client base who trusts us.  But we’ve been able to attract and retain top-quality employees and team members who we rely on every day to continue building out the vision.  Well, I mean, building $600 million in assets under management in a year in a business like wealth management sounds almost like an impossible goal. Did you have a portfolio that you kind of imported into this business, or was that completely from scratch? No. We had clients that we had worked with previously. We had left a big bank. Okay. And so some of those clients came over with us, but a lot of it was growing organically through COIs, through other marketing efforts, and bringing on other advisors who wanted to leverage our platform to provide a better service for their clients. That’s fantastic. So how does one start a wealth management business? It sounds like one of the hardest businesses to start because it’s a trust-based business, from what I see, and it’s a very slow-burn kind of business. How do you actually grow a business like that? Well, I think first is, in our industry, what’s interesting is there’s a lot of different business types. You have the wirehouses, the broker-dealers. There are people that are very successful just being anchored to a Wells Fargo or a J.P. Morgan or Merrill Lynch and building within that. Then you have folks who have gone to the roll-ups. Private equity has become pretty involved in our industry—a lot of roll-ups, a lot of consolidation. Their value proposition is defined platforms that you can just plug in. And then you have what I consider the true independents, ourselves included, where we had a vision of we didn’t want to be held back or bogged down by two areas. One, as things get larger and larger and larger, the wheels turn slower and slower. And I think we're in a unique area from a business evolution cycle that leveraging AI, leveraging the technology, being able to make decisions quickly is going to be a substantial differentiator over the next several years. Share on X And we didn’t want to have the conflicts that inherently come when you are backed by investors, and the focus is how do you maximize revenue, even if it may be at the expense of clients or at the expense of employees or at the expense of growth that you don’t see the return on investment for several years. So we decided that we were going to do it from scratch. Luckily, I had a background in—at the previous firm, I had helped build out all of the tech stack.  I’d worn almost every hat you can have at an RIA, and I had the experience from my father having gone through this, that between the two of us, there was enough goodwill or brand equity to build it out. But the other thing that we decided to do is there’s a reason it’s not called Keller Wealth or Keller Investments. The goal was never to have it be about ourselves. It was about creating a brand and a vision where others feel like they can be a part of.  357: Lead, Guide, & Educate with Zane Keller Share on X So as we brought on employees, I’ve challenged them that they have a responsibility to make an impact on the organization, and we start with culture. People have to be a culture fit first. We will not sacrifice culture for all the money on God’s green earth because I can confidently say that I don’t know how much business or revenue we’re missing out on if the team is not functioning at the highest level possible. So the first and foremost is a cultural fit. Then we look at the skills, the competencies, the ability to grow. But for us, culture is number one. Yeah, love it. So what does it take to grow a wealth management firm? What drives growth in your business? I think it takes three kind of main pieces. One is understanding that there’s a term GaryVee uses called “macro patience, micro speed.” And what we had set out initially is I knew that there were several steps between SEC registration, getting relationships with a custodian, getting relationships with tech vendors, finding office space, all of that that needs to be done just from a basic business foundation standpoint. What I needed to do, when we needed to do it, and logging every week. I actually would send emails to myself and my dad for the first two months before we had employees of everything that got done the previous week, and what we needed to get done the next week, and what our blockers were if things couldn’t get done. Then that kind of grew into, as we had employees, becoming a consistent weekly check-in as we were heading towards what I consider our launch date, which was July 28th, because that’s when we actually received SEC approval.  So the first two months was just building the architecture, building up where we’re going to work, what we’re going to work with, all of those decisions being put in place. I’m fortunate enough that I’ve been involved with a lot of different companies in the industry over the years. So I had people who had done this before, people who had worked with large RIAs, small RIAs, and everything in between to lean on as advisors.  I think one of the things that I was more than surprised by was the amount of outpouring of support. “I’m happy to help you. What do you need? What can we do to make you successful? I know someone that I can connect you to.” And I think that's kind of the unique thing about our industry, is that there is a lot of camaraderie and willingness to help each other, even if you may be competitors in some aspects. Share on X That’s interesting. So when you say “macro patience, micro speed,” what do you mean by that exactly? So our goal is to get to a billion or more in AUM. And while I’d love to do that overnight, it takes time, both from bringing in clients, market performance. I’d love everything to be fully integrated from an AI standpoint, but again, those things take time. So a lot of the times, I think leaders have an issue with wanting to get to the destination as quickly as possible and not thinking through all the steps they need to get there. So each step along the way, or what I consider the day-to-day, I try to get as much done in the hours that I have during the day, and that’s where the speed lies. And eventually that compounds, just like investing, into where we want to go from an overall firm standpoint. But me saying, “I just want to be at a billion dollars,” that’s great. But you’re going to say, “Well, what are you doing every day to get there?” I can go, “Well, I’ve had this many prospect meetings.  I’ve had this many client meetings. We’ve reviewed this much market information. We’ve decided to put money towards these investments.” It’s the day-to-day decision-making and being quick in doing that that I think is imperative for us to get to where our goal is going to be.  Okay. So this is a podcast called Management Blueprint, and it’s a podcast of frameworks. We are 350-plus episodes in, and every episode is a different framework. So I wonder, what’s a framework that you have come across, or maybe your did or you guys refined it, invented it, or improved it, that helps you build this business, that helps you do something more effectively, maybe getting new clients, maybe building your team members or training them, maybe getting the word out, whatever part of business it is that can be explained in three to five steps? Sure. So there’s a book called Turn the Ship Around! by David Marquet, and that, from a leadership standpoint, is the mentality that I have taken since day one. To boil it down into one sentence, it’s this: The people with the information make the decisions. And so if the team is coming to me all the time for every possible decision in order to move this business along, there’s no way that we’re going to grow at the rate or grow, arguably, period, the way that we want to succeed. So when I sit down with the team, one, the first question needs to be, if you’re running an enterprise like this, do you have the right people in the positions they’re at? Do they have the competencies, the understanding, and the cooperation with others to effectively make decisions in their role? And then the second thing that I spend the majority of my time on is, are there things inhibiting them from doing their role? So things such as, do they not know what their budget is? Do they not know who the decision-makers on the other end are? Do they not know that they are responsible or allowed to make those decisions?  So my goal is to make sure that they understand that if they have the information and we have built what the, I guess, framework or the bumpers are in bowling, that it's their decision to make and to inform me why they made the decision Share on X not for them to come to me and say, “Do we do A or do we do B?” When we have a team, the expectation is there’s a lot of moving pieces. To your point earlier, it’s a lot to run an RIA. It’s a lot to run a wealth management firm. There’s several things happening all at once, several things that are intertwined, and you can’t have one person that is reasonable as you grow in scale to be aware or understanding of the pros and cons of every decision. So we’ve brought people on. We have a full investment team. They are responsible for making the investment decisions. I listen in, but I’m not doing the due diligence. I’m not meeting with the managers. I’m not doing all of that. We have folks that are responsible from an operations side, making sure things day-to-day happen. I’m not the one making the decisions on that.  But if they come to me and say, “Hey, this is becoming difficult,” or, “We can’t get ahold of so-and-so,” then I step in. But the whole point of it is making sure that they feel empowered. The people with the information make the decisions. You get the right people in place, you should have, from a leadership standpoint, very few decisions you have to make on a day-to-day basis. Share on X Yeah, that’s great. So basically, you share your contextual understanding of your business with the people who work for you so that they can connect the dots as well, make decisions, and you can focus on the strategic part of the business. What do you and your dad focus on? Yeah. I’d say it’s two parts. One is focusing on the more complex client issues, as we have multi-generational, multi-family clients, and also where we want the business to go. And it’s not one-dimensional. It’s bringing on more clients, plus bringing on additional advisors, plus looking at things from a national standpoint. After COVID, Zoom has become very useful, and people have become comfortable with having what I consider tele-wealth. So their advisor may be in a different state, and they’re completely comfortable with that. And so it’s pursuing all of these various growth avenues because the day-to-day is being taken care of. So my focus is just that. It’s focusing on strategy. Where does the next $600 million come from? What about the $600 million after that? And how do we continue to grow in a manner where we don’t sacrifice some of the things that make us unique? As an example, our team constantly talks, interacts all day long, not just on “This is the work that needs to be done,” but people genuinely like working together.  I don’t have a strict in-office policy. The entire team’s here five days a week. I’ve not asked them to do that. I’ve not said they need to do that, but they genuinely enjoy working here. So when we open up a second office, how do we keep that kind of consistency? When we open up a third office or fourth? It's those kinds of areas that I think I spend a lot of my time trying to figure out and see how we grow without sacrificing some of the core values that we have. Share on X Yeah. So what are your core values? Probably three big ones. One is, I don’t know if I’m allowed to say it on the podcast here, but we have a no-assh*le policy. You have to be a genuinely good person to work here. You have to genuinely care about other people, and that is the first test. Two, we want, just like the firm grows, we expect the team to grow personally and professionally. So if you’re going to be here when we do a review, I’m going to ask you: How are you better at contributing to the organization, to your team, and to your coworkers than you were a year ago, and what do you expect to do better a year from now? And then the third thing is: How are you defending our culture? We may have new people come in. What are you doing to set the tone as to how we work here at Ducere? Because, as I mentioned earlier, it’s not just about me and my dad. It’s about the collective organization, each individual playing their part to enhance and protect our culture.  Yeah. So it’s very clear that you talk about culture repeatedly. It sounds like it’s a really big part of your identity and how you want to build this firm. Absolutely. So what’s one thing that you’re actively trying to figure out in this business right now? I think one of the big things is: How do we effectively bring on an advisor where we understand they have a book of business, and we understand they have a certain way of doing things, integrating them into our platform, but allowing them to operate with their own unique style. One of the challenges with scale is sometimes you scale and you give up originality or a unique way that, Steve, you may do something, then I do it a little differently, but it ultimately gets the same goal. And really looking at what are the goals or deliverables that an advisor wants to bring to their clients, and can we allow them flexibility to get there in their own way? And I’ll give you a good example. So what we do from an asset management standpoint is we have what I call an open architecture. So for any given portfolio, there can be a number of combinations and permutations that give you a similar risk profile or result, and we leave that up, if the advisor wants to, for them to decide what that makeup looks like, as long as it’s within the parameters that we’ve set from a risk standpoint.  So as an example, Steve, you say, “I’m aggressive,” and I go, “Great. I’m not going to put you in one stock if you’re retired. That’s too aggressive.” But we do have several things that are approved on the platform, and we do continuous due diligence where we can say, “Steve, here’s two or three options. Which best serves your client? Which is going to be something that your client understands and feels comfortable with?” So that’s one area that we’ve really been trying to focus on and figure out how we express that differentiator in a way that it actually resonates with those advisors.  Yeah. That’s great. So basically, you want to build an organization where people can stay entrepreneurial. They don’t have to just live in a box that is given to them. So you capture more creativity and more personality in your business so that you can grow in a more nimble way. Is this what you’re trying to do here? Yeah. I think the official term they’ve called it is intrapreneurship instead of entrepreneurship. But yes, the goal is: How do we get the

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  Management Blueprint | Steve Preda

  356: Create Operational Rigor with Abhi Jadhav

  Aug 14, 202629 min

  Abhi Jadhav , Founder and CEO of Bay Leaf Digita l and Founder of Brazenly , helps B2B SaaS leaders create operational rigor while embracing AI, innovation, and disciplined execution. Driven by the freedom to experiment, anticipate change, and take the road less traveled, Abhi builds businesses that combine human expertise with AI-powered systems to help teams remain competitive and shape their own futures. In this conversation, Abhi introduces The Operational Rigor Framework—Aggregate To-Dos, Import Them into a System, Prioritize Weekly, and Execute. He explains how turning commitments into organized, prioritized tasks prevents work from falling through the cracks and improves execution across client projects, internal initiatives, and personal responsibilities. Abhi also discusses keeping humans in the loop when deploying AI agents, responding to rapid changes in the SaaS market, and driving growth through visibility, exceptional people, and innovation. — Create Operational Rigueur with Abhi Jadhav Good day. Steve Preda here, and today I’m joined by Abhi Jadhav , founder and CEO of Bay Leaf Digital , a B2B SaaS marketing agency he’s run since 2013. And he’s also the founder of Brazenly , an AI agent orchestration platform he’s building for marketing teams. Abhi, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Steve. Appreciate it. Well, great to have you here. And I’m super interested in how you are evolving your business and your focus on SaaS companies, which is very interesting. But I’d like to start with the question, your personal why. So how are you contributing to human flourishing? What is your personal why, and how do you manifest it in your business, in Bay Leaf Digital? Yeah. So I gave this some thought. It’s been several years since I’ve been running the agency, so it took me back a few years to figure out, well, why did I even start this? So I’m going to date myself, and this is way back when I was in business school. One of my dear friends and classmates at the time, she pointed to me when she was asked, “Who’s most likely to strike it out on their own and run their own business?” And I thought that was really funny at that time because I had no desire to be my own entrepreneur or guy running your own business, et cetera. I was through and through a corporate guy. And a few years later, I realized that I don’t really get energized by playing corporate games to climb the ladder. I prefer freedom to do things and to experiment. And I love taking the road less traveled, and it’s not just speak, it’s actually doing. Yeah. There’s a sign here. It’s a Jeep sign that says, “Road ends and fun begins.” And that kind of encapsulates who I am, really. Yeah. So when I saw this sign, I’m like, “This is me. It needs to go on my wall.” Okay. So that’s my personal why, how I ended up doing what I’m doing.  So how does it manifest in Bay Leaf or even Brazenly? What is that road that has not been traveled yet that you are embarking on? So it is more about being able to anticipate what is coming and being able to be ready for it. I think that is primarily the difference, or to me, that is being my own business owner, it allows me to do that. So moving from an agency and seeing what is coming, AI is going to touch all of us. It already has in so many different ways. So understanding where we are going and being able to do something about it rather than wait for someone else to come along and tell us, “You guys are now obsolete, and we are now moving on to something else.” So it allows me to chart my own path and be able to control, to a certain extent, I can’t say 100%, to a certain extent, what our business destiny is going to be.  So where are we going? What is your vision of the direction? AI has tremendous power, right? And we are still very early, in the early stages of where it’s going to take us. But I’m a firm believer that the human in the loop is extremely important, and that we need to shape AI systems, our posture, in a manner that we maximize the use of AI while making sure that it is being run for the benefit of humans. So the way we approach it is, yes, we will adopt AI, but at the same time, we will never compromise on human in the loop in that process. So our approach is, let’s take things that are easily automated. Let’s take things that we would otherwise not have been able to do. I have a framework on how we deploy AI, and the lowest part of that framework is obvious processes need to be automated. Top part of that framework is things that you could not ever do because it was impossible, impractical to do, automate that.  But in all of that, there is a certain amount of co-piloting or piloting that is needed in order to get valuable outcomes. Where I see us going is we will become pilots or co-pilots with extremely efficient and informed agents that will do the work, but they will not do the work exactly as is needed unless there’s a human in the loop that’s guiding it, right?  Yeah. And I foresee this for the next several years. At some point, and this evolves all the time, but that’s kind of our posture at the moment. Very interesting. So basically, AI agents do the work, or much of the repetitive work, a big part of the work, and the humans are directing the agents. Is that your vision? Humans are directing the agents as well as checking on agent outputs, basically being the guide on making sure that things get done the way they should be done. So more and more, we are leaning on domain expertise, people who know what needs to be done, have that knowledge to be able to man these agents today. Yeah. That is fascinating. So you mentioned that you have a framework. So what is your framework? I have multiple frameworks. Let me talk about probably the most fundamental, foundational framework that can be used by anyone and everyone. Again, going back to my days before the agency, when I was in the corporate world, we would do 360 feedbacks. And at one point, one of the feedback I got, obviously it was constructive feedback, but it was that, “Abhi’s got a great team and he’s a great leader, but sometimes the team does not follow through on things that we’re committed to.” I looked at that feedback and I said, “This is not something that my team needs to fix. This is something that I need to fix. It’s not a team problem.” So we took that weakness and we turned that into a core strength. That is one of my foundational approaches to the way we work, the way we run the business. I’ll break it down for you. Here’s what we really do.  Yeah, please. So you and I are having a conversation. Something comes out of that conversation and I tell you, “Hey, I’ll follow up. I’ll get back to you.” And great, I’ll make a note of it. We have 100 different conversations like this throughout the day. I talk to my clients, I talk to my team. Everyone has something that they need or they’re going to offer. So there’s a pile of things that need to be done. And without having operational discipline around it, things fall through the cracks, right? So a very simple manifestation of that is, hey, make a list. Make a list of things. But there’s a lot more to that. Yeah, you can make a list. You can write it in pencil on a pad, and then it gathers dust, and then you look at it after a few months, you’re like, “Oh, I never really got back to this person, didn’t really do it.” So what we’ve done is we’ve evolved that into an operational rigor where nothing, almost nothing, ever falls through the cracks.  We talk, we’ll organize our thoughts. We’ll put it—it doesn’t matter. It’s a framework, right? It’s not a set of rules. So people might take down notes. They might use Zoom meeting transcripts, whatever it might be. But at the end of the day, we are constantly putting together a list of to-dos. And that’s never enough because at the end of the week, you need to make sure that you’re working on the most important things. So we’ll go through a prioritization process.  I go through it, my team goes through it, and then that defines what we do in the following week. It’s very agile-like, but it’s not quite agile. It’s a set of tasks that eventually kind of come together for a greater purpose. So we’re looking and we are prioritizing and going, “Which is important, which is not?” So the conversations that we have with our clients, I have internally with the team, the conversations are never about, “Hey, whatever happened to that thing?” It never happens. The conversations are more about, “We talked about this last week. Here’s where we are.  Here’s why we are going to either change course, not do it anymore, or we have found a different way of doing it.” In terms of just an extremely important skill, whether you’re a business owner, in the corporate world, to me, operational rigor that leads to disciplined execution is absolutely key.  So what are the steps to this operational rigor framework? How do you actually do it? What are three to five steps or elements that will allow us to communicate to our listeners and maybe for them to try it out? Yeah. Let’s just list them out. So the first thing is just pulling together the to-dos, right? So whether it’s from OneNote or a pad or transcripts, at the end of the day, set aside 30 minutes, an hour max, typically towards the end of the week, to allow you to go through that list of things that you want to do, okay? Put them into a system that allows you to keep track of the status. We use our systems. We use a tool called ClickUp. We’ve used many, many different tools, but today we use that tool. We are able to change priorities, we are able to increase or reduce the size of those tasks, and we are able to collaborate with people on those tasks. So we’ll organize that, spend an hour or so, put it in ClickUp in the agile framework, if you will, and then we execute throughout the week. Monday morning, I look at—there’s never a question about, “Hey, what am I going to do today?” Right?  There’s never a question of, “Oh my God, there’s such a long list of things to do. How am I ever going to get through?” By the time Monday morning hits, I know exactly what I’m doing. By the time Tuesday morning hits, I know how much I accomplished on Monday and what I’m accomplishing on Tuesday. So it becomes very well-oiled, and it’s execution through and through without letting anything fall through the cracks.  Okay. And this is not just me. The entire team behaves this way, and that is what is different, right? This was my feedback I got so many years ago, is follow-through is not there. Okay, we turned that around, made it a strength. Love it. So aggregate the to-dos, import them into the system, prioritize, and execute. And execute. And throughout the week, if you need to reprioritize, reprioritize. It’s okay. And this pertains to your client work, or that also pertains to your internal projects that are improving your business, your own business? It pertains to everything. It’s fundamental to everything we do, right? When we are improving our own business, we break it down to a series of steps, and then we prioritize the steps. For example, Steve, I could have come to your podcast seeing that, oh, I have a meeting at 8:00 AM on Friday. Let me just make sure that I have a shirt on and come to it. But the way I approached it is the same operational rigor, which is, okay, sometime during this week, I’m going to make sure that this wall behind me is clean. I’m going to make sure that I have my talking points, and I’m going to go through a dress rehearsal myself before I come to you. So this operational rigor offers a much higher quality of output.  So it’s not just client-facing, it’s not internal. It’s in everything we do, and that includes my personal life too. To a fault, I use lists to organize my life, but it’s the same concept. It’s not as rigorous, but it is, I have this big to-do, let me break it down into a smaller to-do, knock it out, move to the next one.  Love it. That’s great. It’s a good framework. We can call it the Operational Rigor Framework, perhaps. Operational rigor? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So let’s switch gears here, and I’m really curious what drives growth in your businesses, in Bay Leaf Digital and your new business as well? Okay, so we’re a marketing agency, but more specifically, we are a SaaS marketing agency. So we are niched down into SaaS, and then we niched down further. We are a B2B SaaS marketing agency, right? So it’s a very specific niche that we operate in. But some of the forces that affect us are the same as other agencies, other marketing agencies. So we live on this edge of constant change. And let me explain what these changes are. Number one, marketing channel change. You’ve got Google, Meta, LinkedIn, you name it. They’re all making changes to their platforms all the time, right? Some of my marketers tell me they go in one day into the Meta advertising platform, and the next day they see something completely different. A feature has changed, and what they thought was working yesterday no longer works. So we are living on this edge of constant change as far as the marketing channels are concerned. Then it’s very surprising how much the economy actually affects us.  Because we serve a startup audience, B2B SaaS startup audience, whether there is money flowing in the economy or not actually affects us quite a bit. Post-Covid, when suddenly there was contraction, we felt it. So there’s that external force. And then our competitors are not sitting down napping. They’re also on top of these things. So we have these three external forces affecting us all the time. So for us to live and thrive on this edge, we have to be forward-looking, and we have to be extremely methodical. It goes back to that operational rigor.  Imagine you’ve got 20 different things coming at you. You have to figure out, “Hey, what is the most important thing here, and how do I respond to that? How do I respond to the change?” Being able to anticipate, being able to be forward-looking, and responding has allowed us to weather storms. It was post-Covid, obviously Covid too, but post-Covid was more important from a business perspective. And then you may have heard about this in maybe other conversations, when Claude released their latest version of Claude Code, they unleashed what is called the SaaS apocalypse, meaning SaaS companies, right?  SaaS companies are outdated. They no longer are needed because you can create your own app and you don’t need a SaaS company. So companies that help SaaS companies such as ourselves, B2B SaaS marketing agencies, were in that first line of companies to get affected. But we saw that coming. We saw that coming a year before, right? And we were working, we were preparing for it. So six, eight months in, it doesn’t hurt us as much as maybe it has hurt other companies. These are the things that help us grow. Yeah. Go ahead.  No, no. I’m just wondering, I understand that you are very agile. I mean, you use an agile system, but you’re also agile in the way you are responding to the market changes. You adjusted well with the SaaS apocalypse, or whatever it’s called. But just because you are avoiding a major landmine doesn’t mean it’s going to grow your business. So I wonder what drives the growth beyond being agile. So as the market changes, does it automatically help you create more revenue? That’s a good question. Yes. Yes. So I’m probably talking very big picture. So let me convert that into how this actually drives growth for us. So a change happens, we respond to that change. Sure, it helps us survive. But think about a change in the LLM, the large language models such as Gemini or ChatGPT or Claude, the way they process information and the way they present that information to you. Because we see that, we respond to it, we are able to make sure that when, Steve, maybe you go into Claude and you ask for, “Hey, I want to work with a SaaS marketing agency,” we make sure that we are on top over there because we are responding to changes that are happening in the back end, right? So it’s not just thriving, it’s making sure that you know what is happening so that you can always be at the forefront. Wherever people go to find you, you need to be there. But I’m simplifying this significantly. So that is just responding, still responding. The thing that really drives growth for us internally is we find and work with really, really good people, great team members. We put in a lot of effort to find these great people, and when we find them, we hold onto them. This did not happen overnight. Finding great people is extremely hard, especially for a small business. So we came up with a methodology to actually finding those people. I looked at various methods, but the one method that appealed to me was this method called Who by Geoff Smart and Randy Street, these two authors.  I started there, but then I evolved that framework significantly over time to where it is now a core strength. So whenever we hire people, we know exactly what are the areas of strength they have, what are the areas that we’ll need to help them improve in. And so we know who is coming in and how we can best leverage them. So once we know that, we’re able to move forward fairly easily. So that’s one of our core things that helps us.  So what drives growth is, if I hear it correctly, what drives growth is staying visible with all the algorithm changes and the platform changes. You’re going towards more AI visibility as opposed to SEO visibility. And then also being able to recruit those people who will be able to do the work that is going to respond to the market demand. Exactly. And the third part, the third lever to all of this is innovation. I mean, you would think that an agency would not innovate, but there’s innovation happening all the time in various things. Whether it’s marketing approaches, whether it’s putting together a marketing operational platform or whatever else, you have to innovate to stay ahead. So I would say these are the three things that help us grow.  Yeah. Love it. That’s great. So visibility, people attraction, and innovation. That’s the three legs of the stool. Yeah. So what is one thing that you’re actively trying to figure out in your business right now? One thing we’re trying to actively figure out? That’s such an interesting question. There’s so many things happening all the time, right? So let me pick one that comes right to mind. We’re trying to figure out whether we should raise capital or not. Because we look at some of the greatest recent successes in AI platforms and companies, and they’ve come from one-person to five-person teams. So the question now becomes, when there is no technology moat, there is no reason to hire 100 people to thrive, what is the role of capital? So that is something that I’m debating internally about what should we do here. Do we need it? Do we not need it? And there are so many ot

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  Management Blueprint | Steve Preda

  355: Go from Wholesale to D2C with Sheldon Poon

  Aug 12, 202636 min

  Sheldon Poon , Founder of Drive Marketing , helps established brands go from Wholesale to D2C through performance-driven advertising grounded in data, technology, and human expertise. He is driven to build a company that reflects his values—one where people enjoy their work, have flexibility and autonomy, and continuously learn from and teach one another. In this conversation, Sheldon introduces The A.I.D.A. Framework—Attention, Interest, Desire, and Action. He explains how businesses can eliminate friction across the customer journey, use clean data to improve AI-powered campaigns, and balance automation with human strategy. Sheldon also discusses why genuine relationships are driving B2B growth, how AI is reshaping internships and early-career development, and how Drive Marketing helps successful wholesale brands build direct customer relationships without jeopardizing their valuable retail partnerships — Go from Wholesale to D2C with Sheldon Poon Good day, listeners. Today, I have Sheldon Poon as our guest. He’s the Founder of Drive Marketing , a Montreal-based paid ad agency specializing in performance-driven marketing with a heavy emphasis on using data to make informed strategic decisions. Founded in 2013, Drive Marketing positions themselves as a technical-first partner that bridges the gap between business goals and technical execution. So they’re not a creative agency. They are a technical agency improving your ads. Sheldon, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me, Steve. I’m happy to be here. Yeah. Great to have you here. And my first question is, what is your personal why, and how are you manifesting it in the business? How are you contributing to human flourishing? That’s a very big question for a small ad agency. It is. Yeah. So when I first started the company, I kind of, like a lot of entrepreneurs, right, it came from me kind of looking at my life and where I was in my career and kind of getting frustrated at what I was seeing with my day-to-day job. So I was in a very, very privileged position. I was able to take a bit of a sabbatical from my day job where they held my position, which was great, because if everything went downhill, I could always just jump back to my job. And I was like, “You know what? Like, I have an opportunity here. I’ve always wanted to start a business.” But because I had been working for somebody else for almost, at that point, I think like a decade and a half, I had a lot of experience, and I saw a lot of things that I was like, “This is what I don’t want.” So when I started my company, my internal mission and vision was to build the company that I would want to work at, to build the company that is kind of true to myself and my values, and something that I would enjoy going into day to day. Share on X And then what does all that mean? So the company that I wanted to work at, as I started working and hiring people, what I found was I wanted to have flexibility in my schedule. We treat everybody on the team as an adult. Everybody’s responsible for their workload. And as long as they meet their deadlines, I don’t care when you’re clocking in, clocking out. I’m a night owl. I like working till like midnight, 1:00 a.m. I don’t like doing mornings, so I’m often coming into the office late.  A lot of my team are doing the same thing. Some of them are early risers, and they like to leave early to have their afternoon free. So as long as everybody’s more or less—everybody’s on top of their tasks and more or less working during the day so that we can have our interactions and meetings, that’s perfectly fine. Another thing I think that's core to what I wanted to build was that I've always been very passionate about learning and teaching. In another life, I was teaching high school. Share on X And when I started building the company, one of the things that we made very clear when we’re hiring is that everybody on the team learns because they’re passionate about what we’re doing. And everybody on the team teaches. Even if you’re just an intern coming in, we need to know your perspective because you’ll have a different perspective than me, who’s been doing this for like two decades, where I’m kind of blind to maybe some of the newer stuff that’s happening or some of the stuff that’s like on the ground.  And I want to know when I talk to our interns, when I talk to our juniors, like, “Hey, guys, what are you seeing?” Like, you guys are—you guys are like 20 years younger than me in some cases. Like, I want to know what’s going on with the kids. My personal, like, kind of like personal why of this is that it’s not so much about the end goal. I want to make sure that I enjoy my day-to-day, I enjoy what we do, and I’m not going to pull my hair out going into the office. So, like, I think we built something where everybody on the team is excited to work on stuff because they’re doing the work that they would want to be working on.  They’re learning the stuff that they would want to be learning, and then they get to implement it in a way that is impactful for the company, for the client, for what we’re doing. And my challenge as a leader is to figure out, okay, how do we take that exciting stuff and make it so that it generates money for the company so that we can all continue doing this? Yeah, this is very inspirational. I love it. You’re tapping into people’s curiosity, desire. I like the learning organization idea as well. So do you have a framework for this? Because this podcast is all about frameworks. Yes. How can someone create something like that? What are the steps to create it? So it’s not one framework. Like I said, I’m very passionate about a lot of different topics, and one of the things that’s a personal interest of mine is just business. So, like, looking at business case studies, and from that you start seeing what works and what doesn’t. It’s a lot of different frameworks kind of layered on top of each other for various reasons. For the practical ad side, what we do for our clients strategically, there's a framework there that we like to use called AIDA. So attention, interest, desire, action. Share on X Very standard funnel. The idea is that the reason we like using this is because when you break down the customer journey, this process is just logical. It’s been proven time and time again. If you’re going into Marketing or Business 101, this is one of the first things that you’re going to learn about. Like, what is a funnel? A funnel is, you know, the client’s never heard of you before, and you do something to grab their attention.  Now they’ve heard of you, but that’s not enough. You have to have many touch points, and you have to build interest. So, like, once they’ve heard about you, you got to make sure that it’s a good fit and they’re interested in the pain point or the thing that you’re fixing for them in their lives. And then if you hit them up with that interest message often enough, they’ll start imagining how their life is better with your product or service, and that creates desire. And then once you continue hitting them up at desire, as long as you don’t have any friction between the desire piece and the final call to action, then you’ll get that action at the bottom.  And the thing that people talk about, like, there’s a lot of people that talk about this framework, but I don’t think they’ve studied it properly. Because when you actually look at the history of it, this framework was first introduced in 1898 in a magazine that was talking about ads. This framework arguably predates the term marketing. And when you think about how that framework looks in modern day, it’s changed a lot, right?  When you were running ads in the early 1900s, you could get away with saying whatever the heck you wanted and making whatever wild promises just to get people’s attention. The way that you did it was you maybe had, like, some sort of print or some sort of, like, literally talking to people, getting them to show up to a convention or an expo back in the day, and having those interactions with their audience.  Fast-forward over 100 years, and it looks very different how you grab attention today. Paid ads. People talk about SEO. People talk about viral content. It’s very much changed. What hasn’t changed is the framework. So what that tells us is that human behavior, right? So the framework is based on human psychology: attention, interest, desire. These are all things that are, like, within the human experience. That has not changed. What’s changed is the other end. The technology has changed, so how you implement that.  So the strategy is still the AIDA that we use, right? But our tactics are constantly changing. Now we’re looking at AI. The new thing about ads is that Google just announced that they’ve added an extra option next to PMax, which is the AI option, so that you can actually start showing up in Gemini. So now this has changed our tactics. But our strategy is still based on this human psychology. That's the framework over on kind of the front end. Share on X And then, like I said, we have a bunch of other frameworks. I don’t know how much you want me to get into it, but for hiring, for internal processes, for all sorts of things. Yeah. No, no, no. I love it. I love the AIDA. It’s been a long time I heard about it, and I love the simplicity of it, and I think it still works. So you mentioned something that really interests me. You said that you grab the attention, interest, building the desire, and as long as there’s no friction in the desire, then you’re going to get—the call to action is going to work. So what do you mean friction, and give me some examples of what it could look like. So when you’re talking about AIDA and you’re talking about funnels, especially when you’re talking about online, it’s all very, very quick, right? So there’s a couple of terms here. So when you’re at top of funnel, your main thing is—it’s called a funnel because at the top it’s very, very wide in terms of the audience you want to hit up, and you want to try to get out to as many people as possible. So a lot of people, when they’re thinking of marketing, they’re thinking of the top of funnel, whether they realize it or not. Further down is you’re trying to get a more complex message across. So the practical way to think about it is at the top you’re trying to run ads that’s just very flashy and getting people to stop the scroll. So if they’re on Instagram or something, you literally want them to stop, and you want them to read a quick thing that gets them to click. Once they’ve clicked on it, they’re ending up on a landing page, and that landing page has information that hopefully connects to the audience in a meaningful way, and they’re interested in reading more.  An example of friction would be if you click on an ad that’s purple, and then you end up on a landing page that’s black and white or red. That difference in color, that difference in style creates a friction point that psychologically, it makes the person pause and go, “Wait, did I just end up on the wrong page?” So when you have, like, a very close alignment between each of those levels, it reduces the friction and increases the chances that people will go down.  So the most important friction point that people need to be aware of is, like I just talked about the top of funnel, the opposite end, the bottom of funnel, is where there's the highest intent. Share on X So you can imagine at the top of funnel, because people have never heard of you before, their intention to buy from you is probably very low or very limited because they don’t know you yet. But once you’ve done all that work to get to know them and create a relationship with the brand, you’re at the bottom of funnel, and that point is critical. You need to make sure that by the time you’ve warmed them up and everything’s ready to go and the target person is very interested in taking that final step, that somebody else doesn’t come and grab them. For example, like, the very real-world example. If you think about some of the biggest marketing companies in the world, so let’s take McDonald’s and Burger King as examples, right? Because everybody knows those brands. If McDonald’s has taken so much effort to be on billboards and be in front of you, and you’ve seen the brand and you know it, and you’re walking down the street and you’re hungry, and then at that moment of intent, as you’re walking around downtown, you’re like, “I could go for a quick burger right now,” and you know that you’re looking for a McDonald’s, but as you’re walking, you come across a Burger King, you’re like, “Yeah, that’s close enough.”  And then you’re going to walk into the Burger King and do the transaction there. Online, what that looks like is when somebody is doing that final search. So let’s say Summit OS is selling T-shirts, and you’ve done a bunch of work and people love the brand and they’re looking for a specific type of T-shirt that you sell, but they can’t remember quite exactly what it is. They’re like, “Oh, I think it was Summit OS something T-shirt.” And then when they type that in, somebody else’s sponsored ad comes up.  Well, now they probably grabbed that traffic that you took all that time to warm up. If you end up on the landing page, when you scroll down to the bottom, okay, I want to buy this T-shirt. I’m happy with everything that I’ve seen, but now you’re asking for an email, you’re asking for, like, a bunch of things. You click on a button, it doesn’t work. Those are extra friction points that prevent a person from taking action. When you’re looking at the entire funnel, you got to make sure that from a technical standpoint, from a user experience standpoint, from a getting-in-front-of-them-in-the-right-moment standpoint, everything hits, especially in this digital economy where everything’s very, very fast.  So anything that goes wrong, anything that creates a question, anything that creates a frustration point or any opportunity for somebody else to come in and grab that traffic at that moment of intent, those are friction points that you want to address and you want to track and you want to find. And you can imagine how there’s a lot of complexity in that. There’s a lot of testing, there’s a lot of work to make sure that that doesn’t happen.  That’s fascinating. Do you have a process for how you do this, how to eliminate frictions? Yeah. We have a team that does QA and walks through the entire thing and has to do constant testing because what we’ve seen is a lot of other agencies are using AI tools and shortcuts. And lo and behold, a lot of these tools don’t work and they give back false positives, false negatives, and it’s not as good as just taking the time to go through the funnel yourself and make sure everything’s working properly. And it sucks because it’s a lot of work, but that’s how you get the best results, is just by having someone double-check it. And it’s not to say that we don’t use automation. Like, we use a ton of automation, we use a lot of tools. But the final QA is a lot of the time us and the client going through, like, “Okay, everybody, before we hit go, let’s just all go through this before we spend, like, you know, 10K on this and just make sure that everything’s working properly.”  Yeah. Love it. Love it. So you’re building this ad agency, a technical agency, so you focus on making the flawless experience. What drives growth in your business? That’s a good question. That’s something that, honestly, we’re struggling with a little bit. So if anybody’s following me on social media, I’ve been doing a short series. I’m probably going to finish it off soon, but it’s called Watch Sheldon Struggle to Grow His Agency. And it’s literally how I’ve been trying to figure out how to crack lead generation for ourselves and our journey through, like, where we were maybe about a year ago to where we are today. And we’re still trying to answer that question for ourselves in terms of, how do we get more leads and more clients in a very difficult economy, in a very difficult time? And we’re trying to figure that out. And people can look up our case studies. I think we’re quite proud of the work that we’ve been able to do, and having that technical know-how has given us a huge advantage in terms of performance numbers. And that alone, in the past, through my network, was enough to keep us busy because people would just seek me out whenever they had a problem with their technical stack or their ads.  I’d say in the last maybe 18 months or so, like a lot of other agencies, the word-of-mouth stuff has kind of dried up, where people are kind of, like, holding back their spend. We’ve had a bunch of contracts that were put on hold because of the economic situation around the world. Nobody knows what’s going on. Everybody wants to hold back spend. Everybody wants to sit and wait. So even though people are still contacting me, the flow of projects has slowed down because people are more hesitant to pull the trigger and go. It’s also taking longer for us to have these conversations. Because that organic piece kind of slowed down, we’ve been trying to find inorganic pieces.  I’ve been doing more networking. I’ve been trying to figure out building out our own funnel, which we should’ve done years ago. The thing that’s driving growth for us right now is probably the things that are not scalable, right? In the age of AI, when you’re working with a business, you want to be working with a person. Like, nobody wants a partner who’s just a machine. So doing the things that are not scalable means really doing the things that are human, having human interactions, having human conversations, going out for coffee with people, meeting people at conventions and workshops and, you know, like, literally just getting our name out there in a way that is more human and just having real conversations.  And despite all the other testing that we’ve done with the cold emails, with the ads, with this, that, and the other thing, like, that seems to be the thing that’s working the most, is just kind of putting my name out there and saying to people, like, “Hey, if you have a problem, come talk to me. We’re not necessarily going to have a contract together, but hopefully we can have a quick coffee and I can at least get you past a technical hurdle.  I can give you some insight into what you’re struggling with and give you a hand.” And that kind of goodwill has led to more conversations and more contracts and new contracts than anything else that we’ve done. For our clients, because our clients are more direct-to-consumer, so they’re usually bigger brands that are selling a quick product, quick service to

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  Management Blueprint | Steve Preda

  354: Build AI Revenue Engines with Brian Hong

  Aug 10, 202623 min

  Brian Hong , Founder of Infintech Designs , Flowbots.ai , and BigEasyData.ai , is driven to Build AI Revenue Engines that create freedom by helping businesses generate more leads, sales, and revenue while increasing the productivity of their teams. By combining SEO, AI automation, business intelligence, and human expertise, Brian helps companies improve their marketing, systemize their operations, and enhance their people with AI rather than simply replacing them. In this conversation, Brian introduces his Team Building Framework—Attract and Assess A-Players, Productize and Systemize, Hire People Who Can Follow Instructions, and Enhance with AI Capabilities. He explains how placing people in roles where they can thrive creates stronger teams, why clear processes and blueprints make it easier to scale, and how AI can enhance employees by increasing their productivity instead of replacing them. Brian also discusses how SEO is evolving with ChatGPT and Google AI Overviews, why businesses need to build brand authority and entity breadth, and how business intelligence can identify the specific areas where AI can create the greatest revenue impact. — Build AI Revenue Engines with Brian Hong Good day, dear listeners. Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint Podcast, and today my guest is Brian Hong , the founder of Infintech Designs , Flowbots.ai , and BigEasyData.ai . These are New Orleans-based companies, including a digital marketing agency, focused on building more leads, more sales, and more exposure online with strategic SEO and digital marketing strategies. Brian, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me. So you have quite a portfolio. I also read on your LinkedIn page that you invest in other companies, and then you support them as well. So it sounds like you have a lot of irons in the fire. But before we get into all that, my question to you is, what is your personal “Why,” and how are you manifesting it in your business, or businesses? Why do I work so hard? Why do I want to build all these companies? To me, money creates freedom. I’m trying to bank as many freedom points as I can to live life on my own terms, and to do and have experiences with the people I love. That’s my “Why.” Wow. How does that manifest in your businesses? That’s a good question. I'm building AI automation to get my time leverage, to create duplication, so I can 10x the productivity of my employees. Not hire more people, but keep my A-players. Share on X Because if I have an A-team, or can cultivate an A-team, then I think I can bank more freedom points at a more efficient and scalable process. Don’t hire more people. Hire people intentionally, and 10x their productivity. That would be a domino effect to align with gaining more freedom points. So what’s the maximum number of freedom points? Is it like a 100-point scale? What does it look like to have 100 freedom points? It’s working because I want to, not because I have to. Because I love working. It’s living life on my own terms and focusing my time on things that I want to do. For instance, I have a house cleaner. I don’t want to clean the house. My time is better spent doing something else that I passionately want or love to do. Unless I loved cleaning houses. That’s fine. Maybe that’s therapeutic for some people. But it allows me to live life on my own terms. Money is the key that unlocks those opportunities to live life on my terms. Share on X How do you maximize your freedom points? What does it look like when your freedom points are maxed out? Then I’m working because I want to, not because I have to. I still want to work. I still want to build. I love building things. I’m not the type of guy who wants to go to the beach, sit on the beach, and do nothing all day. I might do that for an hour. I’ve got to be doing something. I have to be building. It’s just the way I’m programmed. Maybe I don’t want to work as much as I do now, but I can’t imagine a life doing nothing. To me, that doesn’t serve a purpose. Yeah. I like building. I love contributing. I love being a part of the equation of success. It's just fun to me. I get gratification out of it. I like creating jobs. Share on X I like creating communities. I like meeting people. It’s interesting to me. It fills my bucket. That bucket is filled to then, I mean, try and give me freedom points to then go spend some personal time creating experiences with the people I love, mainly my wife and my child. That’s amazing. Okay, let me take a step back. You have multiple companies. You have Infintech Designs. You have a couple of AI companies as well. How does that portfolio work? I essentially do this. I have a construction company as well, TurnKey Renovators, a GC for residential. I have a couple of e-commerce companies. Really, I’m doing the same thing over and over. Earlier in my life, I used to wait tables. My takeaway from that experience, from working at Applebee’s to fine dining, is: How many different dishes can you make with the same ingredients? With my knowledge, my resources, and my skills, how many different things can I do with them? This is my version of it. All those companies, by the way, I’ve never stroked a check. I pretty much say, “Give me half your company, and I’ll help you grow it.” I’ve never cut a check because I give them what they really want, which is the outcome they want to achieve with that money. They want the money to help grow their company. What if I just help you grow your company?  So I ask for an equal seat at the table, and in exchange, I’ll install what I know and go grow it. I’m essentially doing that over and over. My time is spent on high-level decisions, systems, processes, automation, and marketing.  Yeah. Love it. You know, I always wondered about marketing agencies. If they really know how to grow sales, why are they not doing it for themselves, and why are they offering it to others? It sounds like you are drinking your own Kool-Aid, and you are using your own product. Yeah. Definitely. We practice what we preach. I see some companies doing that because there’s also an abundance mindset. If I can do it for me, and I can do it for someone else, let me just create another revenue stream and do it for both of us. Okay. That makes sense. This podcast is all about frameworks. I wonder, what is a framework that you have created or discovered that helps you be effective in what you do, and that you could share with the audience so they might also find a way to leverage it in their business? I guess it depends on many things. From team building, it may be doing a DiSC Assessment and Kolbe tests to make sure we place each person in a situation where they thrive. Sometimes when things aren’t working, maybe the owner, the manager, or the person needs to look in the mirror and say, “This is my fault, not the employee’s fault.” “I didn’t set them up for success.” “I’m trying to stick a round peg into a square hole.” “I’m trying to put them in a position that they may not thrive in, and they’re not programmed to naturally do.” So we’ll sometimes do these assessments, whether it’s a personality clash or a personality type, and make sure we place them in a role where they’ll thrive. So that could be a framework. Setting the employee up for success. Once we do have an employee, the better the plan, the better the outcome. So try to productize and systemize everything we do. If we have a blueprint people need to follow, then I can spend more of my time not finding specific talent and skills, but finding people who can follow instructions.  Because if we have the blueprint, and this is what you need to do, then I can get a lower-wage worker who doesn’t have a specialized skill. That specialized skill will be developed because I’m handing you the blueprint of what you need to execute.  So that’s the three-step framework. Set employees up for success by delegating tasks that fit their personality. Then productize and systemize. Then find people who can implement. To what extent does that work in the AI age? Are these people who just execute tasks according to instructions still solving the problems, or is that no longer working because of the fast pace of change? It depends on what the activity is, but generally, and more often, it’s human enhancement, not human replacement. So instead of saying, “Let’s just say I have a web developer, and I get more business, so I need to hire a second web developer, web designer, programmer, then a third one, then a fourth one.” The new version today is: keep the one you have, and instead of hiring another human, 10x their productivity with an AI-driven solution. Allow them to do more with less. Allow them to duplicate their activities so they focus on their revenue-generating activities, on the decisions and activities that AI cannot do, as of yet. That’s how we turn an A-player into an A-plus player. That’s how we turn a B-player into an A-player. That prevents me from having to hire people I don’t want working for me, which are C-players.  Isn’t there a risk that when you have too few players, even if they are A-plus, there’s too much dependence on a single person? Well, I mean, we’ll hire more than one. I have a seven-person leadership team. I have two main managers. I have a department head and then an associate, so there’s always some level of duplication. Then you have an AI layer in between that. So between all of that, yes, if someone gets struck by lightning or someone is sick, the ship needs to keep sailing. We can’t shut down the business. Love it. What is driving growth in your business? Relationships. SEO. Ranking in LLMs. Google AI Overviews. ChatGPT. I’d say those are the main pillars that are creating opportunities. I also own a conference, rockstarsconference.com . We’re entering our 15th year. That’s network value, positioning of expertise, and relationship building. Things that AI cannot replicate. Human connections. Then I also do SEO for myself, right? Our last handful of leads that came in through Flowbot.ai. This one particularly stands out. There was this roofing company that sent me an email. We actually talked on the phone. He really blew up my ego and talked about how great I was. I thought he was a referral. I’m like, “Man, why does this person think I’m so great? It’s really odd.” I said, “Can I ask how you heard about me?” He’s like, “Oh, I spent the last two hours talking to Gemini because I discovered you through Google AI Overviews, and it just told me you’re great.” So I’m like, we’re entering a new world. That is a referral. It’s not from someone I know who spoke highly about me. It’s through a language model. Gemini said I was great, so this person believed I was great.  That’s amazing. That’s very cool. So you have these four pillars. I love it. Relationships, SEO, GEO—or whatever AI referrals you want to call it—and the conference. Would you bucket the conference into the same category as relationships, or is that more of a proactive way of creating a community beyond personal relationships? Is it the same thing? It checks a lot of boxes. A few of my business partners were born out of that conference. New opportunities and getting clients were born out of that. Knowledge gain. Knowledge transfer that I gained to go implement. So it checks all the boxes. I’m gaining knowledge. I’m gaining relationships. I’m gaining partners. I’m gaining new systems. New processes. I’m gaining sparks, catalysts, and kind of tracks to go down and explore. So it kind of checks a lot of boxes. Yeah. Love it. So the SEO and GEO piece, is it something that is static, or is it dynamically changing all the time? Dynamically changing. It’s SEO 3.0, right? SEO is dead. It’s dead if you’re doing SEO the old way. Getting ranked in ChatGPT, the LLMs, and Google AI Overviews. Let’s just say it’s everything you do with SEO, plus more now because you have ChatGPT citations. You have sources that these LLMs frequently query. Then, in the world of SEO—the search engine Google—you have broad core updates. Broad core updates. Updates to the algorithm. That’s pretty much what it means. They also occur within LLMs. So it’s pretty much do SEO, plus more. What is the plus more? If I had to distill it, it’s get brand mentions and actually become a brand. Do podcast interviews like this. Get press releases. Get write-ups. Be on SoundCloud. Do social media. Post on LinkedIn. Get write-ups in news and media publications. Appear in Google News. Have a website that has dynamic content. Create your topical map. The list keeps on going. Build your brand. That’s the SEO of today. That will put you in a position to get mentioned in ChatGPT and Google AI Overviews.  Yeah. That’s fascinating. I’m just thinking about my business. We had a website that actually got some referrals from AI. We even got some clients last year. Then we split the website into two websites, and things dried up. It was kind of an interesting situation. We still had the same amount of content, but we moved it to a different domain, and it did not register the same way. Do you see that often? Yeah. You want Google and LLMs, at the most basic level, to have a better understanding of who you are, what you do, where you do it, and the services you offer through having something called breadth of entities. Entities are the nouns of the internet. Entities are a signal. A language. All Wikipedia pages are entities, but not all entities have Wikipedia pages. They’re the nouns of the internet. It’s a layer of clarity for search engines, algorithms, and LLMs to understand who you are, what you do, and where you do it. It’s not the only signal, but at a foundational layer, that should be implemented. So what we’re talking about is creating content. What does that mean? Create content on your website. Don’t create content for the sake of creating content because anybody can create content with AI.  Create intentional content that satisfies the user and aligns with certain algorithmic components, such as Google's E-E-A-T: Experience, Expertise, Authoritativeness, and Trust. Share on X Everything we’re talking about is SEO. You want optimized content. You want pages. The first 150 to 200 words are important. The last 150 to 200 words are important. Add tables. Add bullet points. Make sure your content is clear. Position yourself with authority. Have links pointing to it. Interlink it. These are all SEO kinds of activities. So SEO is alive and well, but there are new layers you need to add on top of that to create optimal positioning in Google AI Overviews and ChatGPT.  Yeah. I saw one of your videos on your LinkedIn page where you actually explained what is the wrong way to do SEO and the right way to do it. I think you had your alter ego disputing with you. Yeah. That was pretty funny. So that sounds like a lot of work. Can you delegate that to AI agents to do this kind of stuff? Yes and no. It’s not like I just click a button and step away. It takes a human-in-the-loop system, and that’s what we’ve developed. So yes, I don’t need as many humans, but I still need humans. So you said that in one of these companies you have 100 AI agents working on SEO, creating SEO impact for your clients. What is it that the AI agents can do, and what is it that you still need the human to do? The AIs collect information, rapidly digest it, find patterns, perform pattern analysis, do research, and create content briefs. But there needs to be thought leadership. AI is very directional. It’s, “Go do this,” but we need a human to point it in the right direction. We need to create guardrails. We need to create a source of truth. It needs to know where to look for the right information. It needs direction on what to do with this information. How should I digest it? How should I format it? How should I break up the heading tags? It needs that element where it can go do it, but the human is part of that last-mile conversion. So maybe the AI does zero to 80, and maybe the human does the 80 to 100.  Yeah. That’s very interesting. So what’s one thing that you’re actively trying to figure out in your business? How to automate everything. Everything is a complete agentic workflow that is proactive, not reactive. Where I have a board of advisors every day looking at how they can serve me. Share on X Identifying the patterns in my life that I need to stop doing and they can do. Developing skills, if they don’t have them, to go execute that. Having a feedback loop to constantly improve. This has become superintelligence. Agentic work, which is kind of here. That’s what maybe some people have heard about: OpenClaw. Then you have something called a Hermes agent. These things are here, but they need to be trained. They need to be fed the right information and given the right guardrails. But it has begun, and I’m trying to go down that journey.  Isn’t that overwhelming to think of all these details, managing these agents, and making sure they’re not going rogue or getting confused by what every one of them is doing? It’s overwhelmingly exciting, but not overwhelmingly bad, because this is the worst it’s going to be, and it’s mind-blowingly good. It’s overwhelming because it’s so amazing and so awesome. It’s garbage in, garbage out. I am the architect trying to create the blueprint on how to control these agents. To me, that’s incredibly exciting and incredibly amazing. To be a part of this time in history, it’s like that feeling when I dropped out of college and this thing called the internet was born in 2000. I knew the world wasn’t going to be the same again. That same feeling came again in 2022 when I heard about ChatGPT. I created my first AI company in 2023. I said the world isn’t going to be the same again. I have the same feeling I had in 2000, but times 100. So to me, it’s overwhelming, but overwhelmingly exciting.  Yeah. So what does one do if they want to get, okay, let’s say it’s me. I use ChatGPT actively, but I’m not building AI agents. What would you recommend that I do? How do I even get started? What is your pain point? Is it communication? Is it writing emails? Is it reporting? It kind of depends, right? You can customize it based on your pain points. Where are you spending your time, and where should you be spending your time? Yeah. That’s a good question. I think the first question is, what should I even use it for? I can give you some ideas. A handful of things I use it for, but not limited to. I can give you use cases that we do for other people. So to construction company, inbound and outbound calls. We never miss a phone call. We answer every single one. We qualify the lead. We seamlessly connect to a CRM. We know if it’s a new customer or an existing customer. If it’s an existing customer, we can look at their history. We can now have an intentional conversation through voice. I can clone that. I can qualify them. I can book the appointment. I can put it on the salesperson’s calendar. I can receive a text message. I can

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