Episode #36
Ep 36: Beyond the Figures: Measuring What Matters in Asset Recovery
What happens to a seized mafia asset after the headlines fade? Dr Amber Phillips, Senior Lecturer in Criminology at UWE Bristol, has spent her career chasing that answer, starting with fieldwork in Calabria alongside anti-mafia organisations working to strip the 'Ndrangheta of its assets and its grip on local communities. She joins Jason Sandoval to unpack her 'Beyond the Figures' research with financial investigators across England and Wales and the gap between headline recoveries and what practitioners count as success. Amber argues for a fifth 'D', Destination, alongside disruption, disentitlement and deterrence, and previews her new NCA/Home Office study, funded through the Asset Recovery Incentivisation Scheme (ARIS), on whether asset recovery genuinely deters crime. ⏱️ Timestamps 02:00 – Amber's route into asset recovery via Calabria 08:45 – how mafia power works and what asset recovery undermines 14:00 – the GOEL social reuse model in Calabria 17:50 – proposing a fifth D: destination as a measure of success 21:00 – Beyond the Figures 29:45 – how ARIS funding actually works About Our Guest Dr Amber Phillips is a Senior Lecturer in Criminology at UWE Bristol, specialising in organised and economic crime. Her career began in Calabria with anti-mafia organisations and she now leads a new NCA/Home Office study examining whether asset recovery genuinely deters crime. Key Takeaways Numbers Do Not Tell the Story Amber's research with financial investigators found headline figures often miss the disruption and investigative quality practitioners value most. Destination Deserves Its Own D Amber proposes adding Destination to the existing framework of disruption, disentitlement, deterrence and detection. Low Value Orders Can Outperform High Value Ones A small seizure from an early-stage offender can disrupt a criminal career as effectively as a six-figure one further down the line. ARIS Funding Shapes Investigator Behaviour How ARIS returns are split between confiscation and forfeiture orders can push investigators toward the more lucrative route, not the more powerful one. Resources Mentioned Dr Amber Phillips on LinkedIn Bristol247 on the NCA/Home Office study Seize & Desist E32 with Sal Melki, NCA Seize & Desist E35 with Oliver Bullough Stay Connected If you found this episode useful, make sure you: Subscribe to Seize & Desist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn and Twitter/X for updates, resources, and future episodes Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime ⚠️ Disclaimer Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.
