The Messy Reformation

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.

The Messy Reformation is a religion podcast hosted by Jason Ruis, with 298 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80.

Jason Ruis hosts The Messy Reformation, a religion show with 298 episodes published.

Our AI reads these to draft pitches. Use them as grounding for a pitch that cites a real guest and a specific topic.

• 

  Episode #297

  Episode 281: An Update—Where We've Been and Where We're Going

  Sep 13, 202614 min

  Jason records solo with an update on why the show has been quiet and what comes next. The reruns earlier this summer were intentional. We wanted listeners to hear the conversations we were having three, four, and five years ago, before the fights, and to hear the contrast between that tone and the conversations about Synod. Jason's reason for running them: it's easy to move on to the next fight without stopping to look at how good God has been to the Christian Reformed Church. Then the posting stopped, and people noticed. Jason has gotten text messages asking whether everything is okay. The show has been running for almost six years without missing much; the only long gap was the two or three months when he almost died. That's not what's happening this time. Two things happened over the summer. Dan DeGraff's church blessed him with a sabbatical, and he stepped away from his responsibilities at the Messy Reformation for those months. Jason, coming off a year of stepping into two new roles at a church and a school, treated his own summer much the same way. Two of the three of them were out for three months, and then the school year started. The gap turned into a chance to think. For about five years it was clear what the main conversation in the CRC needed to be. Those conversations have largely been wrapped up. There are still plenty of issues, but less agreement about which one is central. So the question the team is sitting with is what role God has for the Messy Reformation in the life of the church right now. Jason is direct about not wanting to have conversations for conversation's sake, or put out episodes for the sake of putting out content. Out of that comes a listener survey. Jason grounds the request in the conviction that the Holy Spirit speaks more clearly through large groups of people, which is why the church has classes and synods. He wants to know who is listening, why, what has been useful, and where listeners think the CRC is going. He also names the shift the denomination has made into a rebuilding phase, and says the podcast likely needs to shift toward it. And he is hoping to bring back the Messy Reformation conference in Wisconsin next summer. He asks for patience and for prayer while the team works this out. Take the listener survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf91m4Obqpue1s6tCchu49CZHTRnrnd3xeTPeFnyuExxus81g/viewform Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 1:55 — The update begins 2:20 — Why the reruns were intentional 3:12 — "He has done great things" 3:35 — The text messages checking in 3:46 — Almost six years, and the one long gap 4:18 — No, the Messy Reformation isn't going away 4:34 — Dan's sabbatical 4:49 — Jason's summer, and two new roles 5:27 — September is nuts 5:47 — Taking a moment to think before diving back in 6:14 — The big conversations have basically been wrapped up 6:41 — What role does the Messy Reformation play now 7:02 — Not content for the sake of content 7:23 — Reformation is never complete 8:20 — A week or two before new episodes 8:43 — The listener survey 9:39 — Whether the podcast needs to shift 10:17 — Why this is a theological question, not a marketing one 11:19 — Getting back to the work 11:37 — Hoping to bring back the conference next summer 12:18 — Be patient with us, be praying for us 13:29 — Substack newsletter 13:52 — Closing Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

  ListenShow Notes
• 

  Episode #296

  Reminder Episode: Before We Knew — Reformation IS Messy — Jason's Thoughts Post-Synod 2023

  Aug 23, 202621 min

  Recorded days after Synod 2023. Last of three reruns in the Before We Knew series. Jason says at the outset that he is not getting into the weeds of what happened at synod. He had been processing the week out loud with Rachel, including his own committee's material being tabled to the following year, and her reply was: so you're telling me that reformation is messy. He takes that as the correction. His own impatience keeps him expecting things to move quickly and on his timeline, and they never do. Over the course of the drive he moved from discouraged to encouraged. The middle of the episode is two texts. From 2 Corinthians, which he points out is probably Paul's fourth letter to Corinth rather than his second — the church there was a mess for a long time and no single letter fixed it. He reads 2 Corinthians 1:8-11, on being burdened beyond strength and despairing of life itself so as to rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead, and 2 Corinthians 4:7-11, treasure in jars of clay, afflicted but not crushed. The point he draws from both: if reformation comes to the CRC it will be because God did it, not because anyone was powerful or smart. Then Calvin, writing about Geneva after his expulsion, as he considered returning. Placed in that station by God like a sentinel at his post, from which it would be impiety to move a single foot; not a day passed in which he did not ten times over long for death, and yet the thought of leaving never came. Jason applies it directly: this is not an excuse to leave, it is a call to stay, even when disappointed, even when frustrated, even when out-politicked. He then lists what synod actually accomplished, against the mood people left with. Two vote counts were given, at 72 percent and 68 percent conservative, in line with the year before — and he says plainly that he was wrong, having predicted 60 to 66 percent for months. Synod 2022 was not a fluke and neither was 2023. Confessional status was upheld. Neland Avenue's appeal was not sustained. Classes and the denomination's institutions and agencies were instructed to come into alignment. The majority report on gravamen was about to pass, which he reads as the reason the end of synod became as chaotic as it did. He also names a new unity among conservative delegates, quoting a brother who texted afterward that for the first time in thirty years he had found the kind of brothers he expected to meet in seminary in the nineties. The charge comes last. The work stopped on the one-yard line, everyone knows where the ball is, and the question is who will lead the CRC now. He quotes a text he received — if conservatives leave now, they never wanted to lead anything — and directs it at his own side: stay and lead your congregation, your classis, your denomination. He closes on reward. Hebrews 11 on Moses counting the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt because he was looking ahead to his reward, and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 on light momentary affliction preparing an eternal weight of glory. Good work was done at Synod 2023 and it did not produce the earthly outcome people wanted; it may never. The reward is stored elsewhere. Timestamps: 0:00 — Series intro 1:40 — Original episode begins 1:55 — On naming a podcast The Messy Reformation 2:15 — The drive home from Grand Rapids 2:34 — "So you're telling me that reformation is messy" 3:00 — Impatience, and expecting things on your own timeline 3:39 — Read 2 Corinthians 4:13 — Probably Paul's fourth letter, not his second 4:53 — 2 Corinthians 1: burdened beyond our strength 5:38 — 2 Corinthians 4: treasure in jars of clay 6:25 — We are not a big deal; God brings reformation 7:04 — Calvin on returning to Geneva 7:51 — "A sentinel at his post" 8:14 — "Not a day passed in which I did not ten times over long for death" 9:49 — Not an excuse to leave; a call to stay 10:31 — Staying when you get out-politicked 10:59 — The two vote counts: 72 percent and 68 percent 11:16 — "I have to say that I was wrong" 11:42 — Synod 2022 was not a fluke, and neither was 2023 12:01 — Confessional status upheld, Neland's appeal not sustained 13:01 — The gravamen report that was about to pass 13:40 — A new unity among conservatives 13:56 — "The kinds of brothers I thought I might find in seminary" 15:10 — Stopped on the one-yard line 15:35 — Who is going to lead the CRC? 16:03 — "Stay and lead" 16:26 — "If conservatives leave now, they never wanted to lead anything" 17:03 — Why he is not getting into the weeds this time 17:40 — Eternal reward, not earthly reward 17:52 — Hebrews 11: Moses and the treasures of Egypt 19:22 — "Well done, good and faithful servant" 19:48 — 2 Corinthians 4: we do not lose heart 20:35 — Closing Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

  ListenShow Notes
• 

  Episode #295

  Reminder Episode: Before We Knew — Clarity Is Not an Idol— Jason & Willy's Thoughts Post-Synod 2022

  Aug 16, 20261h 10m

  Recorded days after Synod 2022 adjourned. Second of three reruns in the Before We Knew series. Jason and Willy work through the six questions the podcast then put to every delegate it interviewed: your role at synod, what you learned about yourself and the CRC, what encouraged you, what discouraged you, how your congregation is responding, and where we go from here. Willy served as a young adult representative, a role that can speak on the floor but cannot vote or speak for or against a motion. He questions whether the role should exist at all under a Presbyterian polity, and both note how many actual delegates were young that year, most of them conservative. They sat together on advisory committee three, education and candidacy, which handled the seminary and Calvin reports and the candidate interviews, including the two new Calvin Seminary professors, Wilson Cunha in Old Testament and Yudha Thianto in historical theology. Cunha answered directly on the human sexuality report. Thianto said he would abide by whatever synod decided, which left people uneasy. On what encouraged them: orthodoxy prevailed, and it prevailed by margins nobody expected. Four things passed — penal substitutionary atonement, the majority report on human sexuality, confessional status for its teaching, and disciplinary action against Neland Avenue — all by supermajorities in the range of 70 to 75 percent. Jason expected to come home wrecked and did not. He credits the fellowship among delegates and answered prayer, including moments where several delegates arrived at the same conviction separately during deliberations. On what discouraged them: hostility toward orthodoxy in some quarters, arguments from personal testimony treated as equal to Scripture, and conduct on the floor that was out of order on a worldwide livestream. Jason was criticized for repeating the word clarity, and answers the charge that the CRC has made an idol of it: clarity is not about being right, it is what makes pastoral guidance possible. He also names tone deafness, particularly the reasoning that professors should be asked only whether they will abide by synod's decisions rather than what they believe, and traces it to the distance between Grand Rapids and the rest of the denomination. Willy answers with Luther at the Diet of Worms on conscience captive to the word of God. The hardest section is about their own side. Off social media all week, Jason came home to find not only anger from those who wanted an affirming outcome, which he expected, but conservatives who were angry that synod had not gone far enough. Willy answers that watching a livestream is not the same as reading the room. Jason argues from church revitalization: this was the first disciplinary action against a congregation in over twenty years, small wins come before large ones, and nobody thought the work was finished after one synod. They also read the closest vote of the week, the defeated catechism footnote at about 51 percent, as a matter of people not having had time to think it through beforehand. On congregations: Willy's church was glad of the results and worried about a split, and he tells them that separation may be inevitable when both sides believe the gospel is at stake. Jason reads an email from an orthodox pastor who got everything he hoped for from synod and now has a congregation in turmoil, with members asking whether they can still belong. Both argue for giving churches time to repent before stronger action, and Jason ties it to Hebrews 12 — discipline is not designed to remove someone from the family. He mentions the Neland elder who said, with a smile, that synod would have to kick them out. They close on where to go from here. Willy names the three marks of the true church: preaching, sacraments, discipline. Jason wants the in loco committee under the new general secretary held to its work, and a warning that Paul Vander Klay's prediction may hold — that some will leave from the left and some conservatives from the right. His closing word is to the conservatives: this is step one, stay. Timestamps: 0:00 — Series intro 1:43 — Original episode begins 3:02 — The six questions asked of every delegate 4:03 — Willy's role as a young adult representative, and whether it should exist 9:52 — Advisory committee three: education and candidacy 13:49 — Interviewing the new professors: Wilson Cunha 18:30 — Yudha Thianto's answer on the human sexuality report 20:11 — What encouraged them: orthodoxy prevailed 23:51 — Four supermajority votes 25:55 — Answered prayer, and the Spirit at work among delegates 29:06 — Disagreeing agreeably: 95 percent of it went well 31:06 — What discouraged them: hostility toward orthodoxy 34:03 — "The clarity guy," and whether clarity is an idol 35:13 — Tone deafness, and the Grand Rapids echo chamber 38:47 — Luther at the Diet of Worms 39:25 — The social media moratorium, and what came after 40:32 — Conservatives angry that synod did not go far enough 41:40 — Willy: watching a livestream is not reading the room 44:02 — Thinking like a church revitalizer: step one of many 48:46 — The false accusation that orthodox delegates know no one affected 50:49 — The catechism footnote, defeated 51 to 49 53:57 — How the congregations are responding 57:24 — "Separation, I believe, is inevitable" 58:30 — The email from a pastor who won and now has a mess 61:14 — Giving churches room to repent 62:26 — Quoted in the Banner, and Hebrews 12 on discipline 63:45 — The Neland elder: "You're going to have to kick us out" 64:54 — The marks of the true church 66:59 — Holding the in loco committee to its work 67:33 — "Don't leave. Stick with us." Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

  ListenShow Notes
• 

  Episode #294

  Reminder Episode: Before We Knew — Fear God, Not Men — Jason Pre-Synod 2022

  Aug 9, 202619 min

  Recorded in May 2022, weeks before Synod 2022. First of three reruns in the Before We Knew series, pulled from the years before the CRCNA's direction was settled. A solo episode. Jason works through the fear of the Pharisees — Matthew 21:45-46, Mark 11:18, Luke 22:1-2 — where the religious leaders intend to arrest and kill Jesus and hold back because they fear the crowds. He applies it to the delegates heading to synod, alongside 1 Corinthians 16:13: be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. He then describes his own fear. He shakes when he speaks up in a group. A year or two into ministry as a youth pastor, he sat through a contentious congregational meeting, disagreed with where it was going, and said nothing, because he was afraid of what speaking would cost his position and his relationships. He drove home resolved never to do it again. The definition of courage follows: not the absence of fear, but fearing God more than men and moving forward anyway. The second half takes up the arguments circulating before synod — fear of damage, fear of disunity, fear of a rash decision. He names delay as a tactic rather than caution, argues that smaller forces stretch out a fight when they know the numbers are against them, and holds that the majority in the pews were orthodox on sexuality. He cites the Chesterton line that a soldier fights for what is behind him rather than against what is in front of him, and lists what he longs for: a denomination he is not ashamed of, one that disciplines false teaching, that hires people worth being excited about, that is known for standing firm. He closes on 1 Corinthians 15:10 — Paul working harder than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God — and argues that courage comes through faith rather than from within. The episode ends with Acts 20:22-24 adapted to synod: going constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what waits, counting his life of no value if only he may finish the course. Timestamps: 0:00 — Series intro: why we are running these 1:55 — Original episode begins: one odd week before Synod 2022 2:22 — The fear of the Pharisees 2:39 — Matthew 21, Mark 11, Luke 22 4:07 — 1 Corinthians 16:13: be watchful, stand firm 4:30 — "I'm trembling, I'm shaking" 5:06 — The congregational meeting he stayed silent in 5:57 — What courage actually is 7:05 — "Fear God more than you fear men" 8:27 — Delay as a tactic 8:42 — How smaller forces beat larger ones 10:26 — The Chesterton line 11:44 — "I long for the day": what the CRC could be 13:08 — Telling the story of how reformation happened 14:43 — Courage comes from the Lord, not from within 15:07 — 1 Corinthians 15:10 16:31 — Acts 20 adapted to synod 17:42 — Closing Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

  ListenShow Notes
• 

  Episode #293

  Episode 280: Synod 2026 — Speak Boldly, Raise Leaders, and Share the Gospel — Ralph Wigboldus (Part 2)

  Jul 26, 202634 min

  If Synod's new ten-year church-planting vision is going to mean anything, it has to land somewhere ordinary: in one Christian noticing another. Part 2 of our conversation with Ralph Wigboldus starts exactly there. Asked how a small, tired congregation actually begins to raise up leaders, Ralph is refreshingly concrete. Stop living in silos. Don't be afraid to cross the room and talk to someone thirty or forty years younger than you. Discipleship happens with people you know. Willy grounds it in his own story, and Ralph answers with a testimony that shows why he's Reformed to the bone: after a season of rebellion, angry at God, others could have written him off, but it was God who held on to me, not the other way around. From there the conversation turns to two of Synod's harder debates, the WCRC decision and the question of whether a digital-only ministry is a church, and to Ralph's conviction that in an anxious, disconnected world the church's calling is to draw people out to embodied community. What carries the episode is why Ralph came home so full. After everything, he's still very much in love with this denomination. Synod felt like a family reunion. He closes with a charge for a hardening culture: in Canada a new law could brand Scripture as hate speech, and he and his co-pastor won't turn off the livestream to stay safe. Christ's work is not near finished, so speak boldly and share the gospel in love. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro: Calvin's Geneva and raising up leaders 2:52 — "It's on us": the denomination's charge comes home 3:30 — What can small local churches actually do? 4:52 — "Cross the room": discipleship with people you know 5:20 — Willy on the mentors who poured into him 7:34 — "It's not about what's there for you" 8:46 — Raising up leaders isn't just the pastor's job 10:41 — Don't write people off for a few rough edges 11:05 — "God held on to me": Ralph's testimony and why he's Reformed 13:40 — Anything else from Synod? The harder debates 13:59 — The WCRC decision and the scolding that followed 15:45 — Why a digital-only ministry isn't a church 17:11 — What Ralph learned about himself: still in love with the CRC 21:08 — Synod as a family reunion 23:47 — Rejoicing over the virtual-church decision 24:52 — First-time delegates and a more engaged church 25:57 — The youth advisors who impressed everyone 27:09 — Looking ahead to Synod 2027 29:53 — Closing words for a growing audience 30:44 — Bill C-9 and the courage to speak boldly Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

  ListenShow Notes

Recent guests on The Messy Reformation. Study who booked and why before you pitch.

Based on semantic analysis of episode topics and host coverage, this show is a strong guest fit for executives in:

Industry fit is computed by PitchCentric using vector embeddings of the show's episode catalog.