The Serving Second Podcast

The Serving Second Podcast with Dr. Toussaint Williams celebrates the unsung heroes of leadership—the associates, assistants, vice presidents, and right-hand leaders who make vision possible from the second chair. Not everyone wears the top title, but every leader carries weight. Through biblical insight, leadership lessons, and practical takeaways, discover how to win—even when you come in second. Subscribe and be equipped to lead with confidence, clarity, and courage.

The Serving Second Podcast is a business podcast hosted by Toussaint Williams, PhD, with 37 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80. PitchCentric scores this show on Booking Probability, Listen Score, and live audience signals refreshed every 24 hours.

Toussaint Williams, PhD hosts The Serving Second Podcast, a business show with 37 episodes published.

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  Episode #39

  Journal Your Journey - E39

  Aug 14, 202629 min

  This solo episode to speaks directly to anyone serving in a season they did not choose. It names the tension of being faithful and frustrated at the same time, then reframes journaling as a tool for tracking God’s work, spotting patterns, and keeping perspective. Key topics You have permission to admit disappointment instead of pretending serving second never hurts. You can be faithful and frustrated at the same time, and still serve with excellence. Challenge: Serve anyway. Journaling helps you capture the season before you understand it, not after. He reflects on journals dating back to 1999 and explains how old entries now reveal growth, prayers answered, and seasons that only made sense later. He says journaling shows four things clearly: patterns, progress, providence, and perspective. He uses personal examples, including marriage, parenting, career transitions, and the launch of the Serving Second Podcast, to show how painful seasons often become meaningful later. He warns against obsessing over the next assignment so much that you miss the value of the current one. He closes with a practical writing challenge: take five minutes, date the entry, write what you feel, what you’re praying about, and what you’re hoping happens next. He emphasizes that your current chapter is not your whole story. Timestamps 00:00 - Permission to skip this chapter if you need to 03:06 - Serving second does not mean pretending 04:15 - Serve anyway and write the season down 05:44 - Why decades of journals became valuable 08:33 - Be honest on the page about anger, jealousy, and disappointment 11:04 - Journals should also record victories and unexpected wins 12:02 - Why pain is easier to remember than progress 14:01 - A 2003 journal entry about marriage and “He’s Preparing Me” 16:31 - Looking back, what felt random was actually guidance 17:48 - The younger you can only see one day at a time 19:15 - A chapter is not the whole story 20:04 - Being pushed out can develop hidden gifts 21:22 - Don’t get so focused on your next assignment that you miss this one 22:48 - Four things journaling reveals: patterns, progress, providence, perspective 24:03 - When repeated frustration points to something deeper 25:23 - Slow growth, real receipts, and visible maturity 26:40 - Seeing God’s fingerprints in old entries 27:53 - How the podcast began in a season of frustration 29:42 - What God planted in pain becomes clear later 30:19 - Why perspective shrinks huge moments down to size 31:44 - Living in the middle of a journal entry 33:23 - Serve anyway, even if you believe you should be leading 34:34 - Don’t let disappointment in your position neglect your assignment 35:47 - Not every hard journal entry ends happily, but growth is still real 37:57 - Journaling as proof that you are still moving 39:12 - The writing challenge: date it, name it, write it 40:35 - Live, serve, work, and love your people while you journal 42:03 - Why the podcast exists: years of honest writing 42:30 - Detour, rejection, and waiting can all be development 46:40 - Five minutes to write where you are right now 48:27 - Final charge: serve anyway, write your journey, trust God ACTION ITEMS Take five minutes today and write where you are right now. Date the entry and include the time. Write honestly about what hurt, what you feared, and what you are praying for. Record wins, breakthroughs, unexpected calls, and signs of progress too. If needed, use a notebook, binder, or notes app, but get it written down. Share the episode with someone who is struggling in a current season of service.

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  Episode #38

  Surrounded! - What do I do now? E-38

  Jul 30, 202629 min

  What Do I Do Now? You went to bed thinking everything was fine. You woke up surrounded. In this solo episode, Dr. Toussaint Williams walks through 2 Kings 6, the story of Elisha's unnamed servant, to answer the question every second-chair leader eventually asks out loud: what am I supposed to do now? This week Toussaint steps away from the interview chair for a solo teaching episode built around one of the most overlooked figures in scripture, the unnamed servant who serves the prophet Elisha. When a Syrian army surrounds the city hunting for Elisha, the servant is the first one to see it and the first one to panic. Toussaint uses that moment to unpack what it feels like to carry pressure you did not create, a reality every second-chair leader knows well. He also opens up about a difficult season his own family has walked through over the past few months, and the leadership lessons he is still working through in real time. The episode closes with a practical three-step framework for leading through a crisis without losing your footing. In This Episode Why the story of an unnamed servant in 2 Kings 6 says more to second-chair leaders than the story of the prophet does What it means to carry pressure you did not create and did not ask for A personal update on a season of family challenge Toussaint and his wife have been navigating The difference between fear knocking on the door and fear getting a seat at the decision-making table Why Elisha's first prayer was not for the problem to disappear, but for eyes to see clearly A three-step framework for leading through a crisis: see clearly, seek perspective, move without panic Timestamps 0:00 - The moment everything changes overnight 1:49 - The story behind the story: 2 Kings 6 and the unnamed servant 3:32 - The international crisis: the king of Syria hunts down Elisha 6:37 - The servant wakes up surrounded 9:47 - The most honest question in scripture: "What are we going to do?" 10:23 - Toussaint's personal story: a season of major family challenges 14:18 - What Elisha does not do, and why it matters 16:36 - Fear counts what is against you. Faith remembers who is for you. 19:04 - Elisha's prayer: "Open his eyes that he may see" 21:03 - The mountain was already full of horses and chariots of fire 22:16 - Calm is contagious. So is panic. 24:13 - The ending nobody expects: grace over violence 26:22 - Three steps for when you feel surrounded 28:37 - Closing encouragement The Framework: When You Feel Surrounded See clearly. Don't exaggerate the problem. Don't minimize it either. Call it what it is. Seek perspective. Pause and pray. Invite wise counsel. Ask yourself what you might not be seeing right now. Move without panic. Not without caution, not without prayer, but without panic. Take the next faithful step, then trust God with the one after that. Connect with Dr. Toussaint Williams Serving Second Podcast, helping leaders maximize the gifts in their hands and master the seat they currently occupy. Website: servingsecond.com If this episode met you where you are, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a second-chair leader who needs to hear it this week.

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  Episode #37

  He Left Work at 5 PM Every Day for 34 Years and Still Got Promoted - E37

  Jul 24, 202618 min

  Your boss walks the floor at 5:15 checking who's still at their desk. Kevin Wayne Johnson made sure his chair was already empty, every single day, for over three decades in federal government leadership. He still made director. Here's how leading from the second chair taught him that presence at home builds the same trust presence at work does. Episode Summary Kevin Wayne Johnson spent 34 years in federal acquisition and contract management, rising to a director-level role overseeing teams in New York, Los Angeles, and London. He is also the author or co-author of 24 books on faith, leadership, and the writing craft, and he leads the Johnson Leadership Group today. In this episode, Kevin traces his leadership foundation back to fatherhood, specifically to a father who served in Vietnam and stayed connected through recorded voice tapes mailed home. That model of presence became the standard Kevin held himself to with his own two hour daily commute and his own kids. He explains the choice he made to leave work at 5 PM without exception, why his leadership earned him the room to do it, and how that same discipline shaped his writing career. This conversation is for the leader who feels like showing up for family and showing up for the mission are in competition. Kevin's story is proof they are not. What You'll Learn Why presence, not perfection, is the trait that shapes the next generation of leaders How to set a hard boundary at work without losing your boss's trust or your next promotion What earns you the credibility to protect your personal life when everyone else is staying late How to build a writing or coaching practice around your life instead of sacrificing your life for it The mindset shift from doing impressive work to making a positive impact on the people around you Timestamps 00:00 Welcome to Kevin Wayne Johnson 00:21 The one thing that shaped his leadership: fatherhood 01:07 What his own father modeled growing up 03:12 Voice tapes from Vietnam and why presence matters to a child 04:23 The difference in proximity: his commute versus his father's absence 06:31 Telling his bosses that family comes first 08:08 Earning the trust to leave at 5 PM every day 09:47 What his director-level role actually involved 11:41 From federal career to 24 published books 14:44 Why he never pigeonholes his writing schedule 15:13 Making a positive impact without needing the spotlight 16:34 Where to find Kevin and the Johnson Leadership Group Connect with Kevin Wayne Johnson Website: https://www.thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com Email: kevin@thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com About the Host Dr. Toussaint Williams is a pastor, author, and leadership consultant, and the host of the Serving Second Podcast, the show for the leaders behind the leaders. Second-chair leadership is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership. Keywords leadership development, second-chair leadership, leading from the second chair, work life balance for leaders, federal government leadership, executive leadership, influence without authority, faith-based leadership, associate pastor leadership, Serving Second Podcast

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  Episode #36

  Stop Waiting for Your Turn: The Real Meaning of Serving Second - E36

  Jul 10, 202633 min

  What if the seat you are waiting to leave is the very place where your leadership is being developed? In this special solo episode, Toussaint resets and reintroduces the heart of Serving Second. After months of conversations with high-performing leaders, he recognized that the movement had been framed too narrowly. Serving Second is not about accepting a lesser position, becoming comfortable in the background, or waiting for your turn to lead. It is about maximizing your gifts, mastering your current assignment, and creating first-place outcomes from whatever seat you occupy. Drawing from the stories of Jonathan and David, Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan, and CJ Quinney and Eric Thomas, Dr. Williams explores the security required to use your abilities to strengthen someone else. These leaders did not serve second because they lacked talent. They chose to leverage their talent for a mission bigger than personal recognition. Dr. Williams also shares his own struggle with being overlooked for positions he believed should have been his. That disappointment forced him to confront a difficult question: Was he genuinely serving the mission, or was he quietly waiting to be chosen? You will learn the difference between position and posture, service and negotiation, ambition and insecurity, and excellence and performance. You will also discover the four pursuits every leader must develop: character, competence, contribution, and calling. Serving Second is a challenge to become greater in your stewardship, discipline, service, and impact. In this episode: Why Serving Second needed a reset How titles distort our understanding of leadership The difference between serving and waiting Why disappointment exposes where your identity is rooted How position differs from posture Why quiet gifts still carry tremendous value The four pursuits of extraordinary stewardship Why the greatest leaders make everyone around them better Key takeaway: You are not powerless because you do not have the title you want. Your opportunity is already here. Your gifts are already enough. Your assignment has already begun. Chapters: 00:16 – The pain of being misunderstood 01:30 – Where Serving Second missed the mark 03:50 – A reset for the movement 05:26 – The dangerous way we measure leadership 06:34 – Stop waiting for a better seat 08:04 – Watching Eric Thomas’s journey 10:35 – Why meeting CJ Quinney mattered 13:00 – Choosing to put someone else first 15:00 – Jonathan’s rightful claim to the throne 17:30 – Strengthening the person God selected 19:32 – Serving Second begins inside you 20:00 – When the position you expected never comes 21:39 – Proximity is not a promise 22:44 – Are you serving or waiting? 24:43 – When excellence becomes a bargaining chip 25:28 – Position versus posture 27:10 – Service, performance, and stewardship 28:17 – Learning to value quiet gifts 30:02 – Stewarding disappointment 31:18 – Becoming valuable right now 33:34 – The new direction of Serving Second 34:40 – Pursuit one: Character 35:58 – Pursuit two: Competence 37:05 – Pursuit three: Contribution 38:05 – Pursuit four: Calling Reflection questions: Am I faithfully serving, or am I quietly waiting to be chosen? Have I confused proximity to a position with a promise of promotion? What gift comes naturally to me that I may be undervaluing? Subscribe to the Serving Second Podcast and share it with someone whose contribution deserves to be recognized. Maximize your gifts. Multiply your impact. Keep Serving Second.

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  Episode #35

  He Built Companies, Then Realized He Was the Problem - E35

  Jul 2, 202643 min

  Servant leadership is not soft leadership. It may be the most strategic way to get real results. In this episode Toussaint sits down with Kurt Uhlir for a direct conversation about leadership, humility, business outcomes, and the hard personal work required to become the kind of leader people can trust. Kurt started his first businesses at 14 years old. One was a lawn care company that grew so quickly he had friends and even adults working for him. Early on, he learned how to sell, organize systems, and produce results. But later, he had to face a painful truth. He was getting results, but he was not leading well. Kurt shares the moment his mentor and his mother both told him the truth he did not want to hear. He had become a toxic authoritative leader. He was demanding outcomes, but creating fear. He was pushing people, but not truly developing them. He was leading in a way that caused bad information to stay hidden and good information to be filtered. That wake-up call changed the way he viewed leadership. This episode is not just about being nicer at work. Kurt makes the business case for servant leadership. He explains why fear-based leadership slows organizations down, why leaders miss critical information when people are afraid to speak honestly, and why serving people well can improve performance, trust, retention, and decision-making. Dr. Williams and Kurt also discuss the power of being a second-chair leader, operator, and “kingmaker.” Kurt explains why he finds deep fulfillment in helping other leaders succeed instead of always trying to sit in the top chair himself. He also talks about what it takes to support a leader well, ask better questions, understand organizational outcomes, and serve the whole person, not just the employee. One of the strongest moments in the conversation is Kurt’s reminder that leaders must create space for honest feedback. If people cannot tell you where you are wrong, your organization will eventually pay for it. Healthy conflict is not a threat to leadership. It is one of the ways leadership gets better. This conversation is for executives, entrepreneurs, ministry leaders, second-chair leaders, operators, and anyone who wants to lead with both excellence and humility. In this episode: • Why early success can hide unhealthy leadership patterns • How Kurt moved from toxic authority to servant leadership • Why fear-based cultures block honest information • How servant leadership creates better business outcomes • Why leaders must care about the whole person • What it means to be a kingmaker or queen maker • How second-chair leaders can bring value without chasing the spotlight • Why healthy conflict must be modeled, not just talked about Leadership Challenge: Ask yourself, “What am I wrong about right now that I think I’m right about?” Then ask someone on your team, “What am I missing that I need to know?” Do not defend yourself. Do not explain it away. Ask clarifying questions. Listen. Learn. Then lead better. Guest: Kurt Uhlir Website: kurtuhlir.com About Serving Second: Toussaint helps leaders maximize the gifts they already have in the seat they currently occupy. Second-chair leadership is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership. When you serve with clarity, excellence, humility, and skill, you can create first-place outcomes from wherever you lead. Subscribe for more conversations on servant leadership, second-chair leadership, business leadership, ministry leadership, personal growth, and leading well from wherever you are. #ServingSecond #SecondChairLeadership #LeadershipDevelopment #BusinessLeadership #ChristianLeadership #ExecutiveLeadership #TeamLeadership #ToussaintWilliams

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