The Systemic Way

The Systemic Way Podcast is a therapy and mental health podcast featuring conversations with experts, practitioners, researchers, and people with lived experience from the worlds of systemic psychotherapy, family therapy, psychology, social work, and community practice. Hosted by Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, the podcast explores mental health, relationships, trauma, resilience, social justice, culture, and change. Through engaging discussions on theory, practice, and real-world experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how systemic and relational approaches can support individuals, families, organisations, and communities. Artwork by Arai Drake Creative: http://www.araidrake.com/portfolio/thesystemicway Music by Rena Paid

The Systemic Way is a science podcast hosted by Sezer and Julie, with 110 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80.

Sezer and Julie hosts The Systemic Way, a science show with 110 episodes published.

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  Episode #109

  "Oughtism" - Rethinking Autism, Diagnosis, & Systemic Responses in Practice

  Sep 27, 202658 minS11

  In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Dr Mairi Evans, Systemic Therapist, Social Worker and Clinical Director in the NHS, to explore autism, neurodivergence and the stories that shape how people are understood within families, services and wider society. Drawing on her doctoral research with mothers of autistic girls, Mairi explores the “aha moments” that can emerge through the diagnostic journey, and what changes once a diagnosis is given. We discuss the history and social construction of autism, the limitations of stereotypical and gendered understandings, and the difference between observed autism and the lived experience of being autistic. Mairi introduces the idea of “Oughtism” to explore the pressures placed on autistic people and their families to behave in particular ways. Through examples from family life, she considers how dominant ideas about what families “should” look like can create additional pressures, and how systemic therapists can help families develop their own ways of being together. The conversation also explores the relationship between autism and ADHD, the limitations of linear ideas of the spectrum, the double bind created by diagnosis and service systems, and the importance of holding both neurodivergence and the wider family context in mind. Throughout, Mairi brings together social constructionism, CMM and systemic thinking with a strong focus on lived experience. She argues for a shift away from seeing neurodivergence as specialist territory and towards making neuroinclusion “everybody’s business”. We also consider what this might mean for systemic family therapy, including how curiosity, neuro-informed not-knowing, hypothesising and attention to family relationships can become part of everyday practice. A conversation about diagnosis, language, family life, service design and the possibilities for a more neuroinclusive systemic practice. Dr Mairi Evans is a Systemic Therapist and Social Worker with experience of working in social care, child and adolescent mental health, adult mental health, neurodevelopmental services and senior management in the NHS. Mairi has a professional doctorate in systemic practice, in which she focused on the diagnostic experience of autism for the mothers of autistic girls. Taking a social constructionist perspective and adopting the Co-ordinated Management of Meaning as a lens Mairi has explored the balance and relationship between co-constructed narratives (stories told) and lived experience (stories lived) for autistic people, their families and helping professionals. She has worked to connect theory to practice across health and social care organisations in order to promote connections, improve services and to reduce barriers to healthcare for autistic people and their families. As a Clinical Director in the NHS, Mairi has an interest in stories for change in wider NHS systems and the relationship between research narratives, commissioning decision makers, service providers and the individuals that seek support. Publications: Oughtism and Oughtistic Narratives in the Lives of Autistic People and their Families (gvsu.edu) Autism and Systemic Practice – Autism and Intersectionality: Implications for Systemic and Relational Psychotherapeutic Practice and Research (systemicautism.com) How do Mothers of Autistic Girls Perceive and Experience the Potential Affordances and Constraints of Diagnosis for their Daughters? (Thesis, University of Bedfordshire) The “Aha Moment”: Exploring autism narratives as told by the mothers of autistic girls (Murmurations: Journal of Transformative Systemic Practice)

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  Episode #108

  The Story Lived and Told: Abbie VanMeter on her Journey to CMM

  Sep 16, 20261h 3mS11

  What happens when we stop asking, “Who is right?” and start asking, “What are we making here?” In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Abbie VanMeter from the CMM Institute and host of the wonderful podcast Stories Lived and Stories Told for a wide-ranging and deeply engaging conversation about Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM). The conversation explores Abbie's personal and professional journey into Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM), how she has come to embody the approach, and what CMM can offer systemic psychotherapy and everyday relationships. Abbie’s journey into CMM is an unexpected one. What began with discovering CMM during the pandemic led to her creating Stories Lived and Stories Told, a podcast now in its fifth season, and to a much deeper exploration of how we create meaning with one another. We talk about what CMM looks like beyond the theory. How does it change the way we listen, communicate and understand relationships? What happens when we begin to notice the meanings we are creating together in the moment? The conversation takes us into some big questions about curiosity, uncertainty, power and expertise. We explore what it means for therapists to hold professional knowledge while also recognising the knowledge and expertise of the people they work with. Abbie talks about curiosity as a “superpower” and the importance of “actually not knowing”. We consider what it means to meet people where they are, rather than assuming we need to bring them somewhere else. We also explore the relationship between lived, told and untold stories. What might become possible when we recognise that there are stories that have not yet been heard, understood or given space? Along the way, we talk about embodiment, improv, “yes and”, the LUUT Model, the complexity of CMM and the experience of learning a theory that becomes increasingly difficult to “unsee”. This is not simply a conversation about learning CMM. It is a conversation about how we live it. How we communicate. How we make meaning. How we relate to one another. And ultimately, what kind of social worlds we are creating together. This is Part One of a two-part conversation. In Part Two, Abbie turns the microphone on Julie and Sezer to explore their own journeys into systemic psychotherapy and the story behind The Systemic Way. Link to Part two https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2466190&post_id=215273874&utm_source=podcast-email&play_audio=true&r=3e6jkh&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyMDUyMTg0NDksInBvc3RfaWQiOjIxNTI3Mzg3NCwiaWF0IjoxNzg5NTMxMzMxLCJleHAiOjE3OTIxMjMzMzEsImlzcyI6InB1Yi0yNDY2MTkwIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.l-mgXbg2Jf_S8uj4tXnySHyXnjkFoHVIiGgpGokdzTQ&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=play_card#play

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  Episode #107

  Neo-Liberalism, Mental Health and Resistance Within The Systems We Live In: In conversation with Mark Phillips

  Aug 28, 20261h 12mS10

  What happens when the systems designed to help us start shaping, limiting or even defining the problems we are trying to solve? In this episode of The Systemic Way , we are joined by Mark Phillips , a highly experienced systemic psychotherapist, mental health nurse and strategic leader who has worked across NHS, local authority and youth justice services for more than two decades. Mark is currently Strategic Health Lead for Youth Justice Services and Head of Family Therapy at Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust, and also works as a consultant systemic psychotherapist and supervisor. He qualified as a systemic psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in 2005. Together, we explore neoliberalism and its impact on systemic practice, mental health and public services . We talk about the growing emphasis on individual responsibility, productivity, measurement and outcomes, and what can be lost when complex relational and social difficulties are reduced to individual problems. Mark shares reflections from his work in youth justice, CAMHS and local authority services , including the tensions between behavioural interventions and more contextual, relational approaches. We explore power, privilege, oppression, organisational culture, payment-by-results, professional identity and the politics of therapy . We also consider what it means for systemic practitioners to become agents of resistance and change : finding allies, learning to speak the language of organisations, challenging taken-for-granted assumptions and creating spaces for alternative ways of working. Ultimately, this is a conversation about how we understand the systems we work within—and what possibilities emerge when we become willing to question them. Chapters: 00:00 – Neoliberalism, Mental Health & Resistance Within The Systems We Live In 03:32 – Meet Mark Phillips 05:52 – An Accidental Journey into Systemic Psychotherapy 08:02 – Privilege, Marginalisation & Identity 20:31 – When Therapy Becomes Part of an Oppressive System 23:42 – Positivism, Relativism & Understanding People in Context 28:18 – What Is Neoliberalism? 34:57 – The Paradox of Payment by Results 36:35 – From Behavioural to Relational Practice 40:48 – Systemic Practice as Activism 42:00 – “Be With Us”: Co-Construction & Collaboration 43:51 – Learning to Speak the Language of the System 48:18 – Finding Allies Within the System 50:12 – Individual Responsibility & Systemic Inequality 51:54 – Neoliberalism & the Productivity Machine 58:19 – Systemic Practice as Resistance 1:00:49 – Taking Risks & Speaking Truth to Power 1:05:12 – Finding Pockets of Possibility 1:09:33 – Moving Beyond “This Is How We Do Things” 1:10:53 – Putting Systemic Theory Into Action

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  Episode #106

  Team Of Life - The Collective Power of Narrative Therapy: With Vicky Eames and Mariangels Ferrer-Duch

  Aug 9, 20261h 4mS10

  Who are the people, past and present, who have helped you become who you are? In this episode of The Systemic Way , we explore Team of Life , a creative narrative practice developed from the Tree of Life approach. We speak with Mariangels Ferrer-Duch and Vicky Eames from Riverbank Psychology as we discuss how to help people reconnect with stories of strength, courage and belonging. This is a reflective conversation about narrative practice, relational identity and the power of remembering that no one's story is written alone. Using the metaphor of a sporting team, Team of Life invites us to think about the people, relationships, communities, values, skills and experiences that have helped shape who we are and supported us through difficult times. Who are the people who have been in your corner? Who has passed you the ball when you needed it? Who helped you find your way when you were unsure where to go? And whose team are you a member of? Together, we explore how Team of Life can create opportunities to recognise skills, celebrate relationships and reconnect people with stories of strength, contribution and belonging that can easily become overshadowed by problems. From a systemic and narrative perspective, the episode asks what becomes possible when we move away from seeing resilience as an individual quality and instead locate it within relationships, histories, communities and collective experience . Because none of us gets through life entirely on our own. Sometimes, it takes a team. Who would be on your Team of Life? Dr Vicky Eames is a consultant clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience in adult and child and adolescent mental health. She offers psychological therapy in Cornwall and online with specialisms in narrative therapy, attachment and trauma focused therapy, EMDR as well as therapeutic work with neurodivergent people. Mariangels Ferrer-Duch is a clinical psychologist and systemic family therapist with over 30 years experience. She also holds a masters in narrative therapy and community work. Mariangels offers online supervision, consultation and training, helping practitioners develop their skills in narrative therapy,

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  Episode #105

  Five Dimensions of Change: Relational-Mindfulness, Mantra and Meaning - A Buddhist-Systemic Approach with Kunsang Yang Yang

  Jul 27, 20261h 26mS10

  Join us for a thought-provoking episode as we sit down with Kunsang Yang Yang , a pioneering voice in the integration of Buddhist philosophy and systemic family therapy. Drawing from years of personal spiritual practice, professional experience, and the teachings of his root guru, H.H. Yisie Vorle (as featured in the book Path Beyond Samsara ), Yang Yang explores how Buddhist concepts like mindfulness, non-self, and wholesome aspirations can transform the way we understand and foster change within families and communities. Discover how Buddhist ideas—such as the five aggregates, relational mindfulness, and the power of mantra recitation—can broaden the systemic lens, offering new pathways for healing and connection. We’ll delve into practical techniques, including the innovative narrative-mantra group model, and hear insights from clinicians who have participated in these integrative practices. Whether you’re a therapist, spiritual seeker, or simply curious about the intersection of Eastern wisdom and modern psychology, this episode offers fresh perspectives and actionable ideas for cultivating compassion, resilience, and meaningful change. Tune in to explore the rich dialogue between Buddhism and systemic therapy, and learn how ancient wisdom is shaping the future of mental health and relational wellbeing. As a qualified Singaporean Systemic Family Psychotherapist, Counsellor and Social Worker for over 20 years, Yang Yang has worked with children, adolescents, individual adults, couples and families in the UK and Singapore. He lived in London for 13 years before relocating back to Singapore, where he continues to offer systemic therapy as a Buddhist monk. He just completed his PhD in Buddhist studies at Thailand during this interview.

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