Victors in Grad School

Victors in Grad School explores what you can do to find success in your own graduate school journey no matter what you plan to do. Through experts and individual interviews you will be introduced to what it means to find success and tips on achieving success in graduate school.

Victors in Grad School is a education podcast hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, with 209 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80. PitchCentric scores this show on Booking Probability, Listen Score, and live audience signals refreshed every 24 hours.

Dr. Christopher Lewis hosts Victors in Grad School, a education show with 209 episodes published.

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  Victors in Grad School

  Bridging Medicine and AI: Zoiya Morell's Unconventional Grad School Journey

  Aug 17, 202629 min

  In a standout episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Zoiya Morell , a trailblazing University of Michigan Flint graduate who boldly charted a course from biology to artificial intelligence (AI) and is now pursuing her MD at Central Michigan University. This conversation not only chronicles Zoiya Morell 's unique academic path but also offers invaluable guidance for anyone contemplating graduate studies or navigating career pivots. The episode is rich with themes of curiosity, courage, and the power of following your passion—even when it leads to uncharted territory. Zoiya Morell candidly shares how she noticed the rapid rise of AI in medicine during her undergraduate pre-med studies. Lacking a coding background didn't stop her; instead, she recognized a learning opportunity and jumped headfirst into a challenging master's program in AI. Her experience proves that you don't need to fit the mold to shape a meaningful and impactful career. A major highlight is Zoiya Morell 's emphasis on embracing the unknown and the unexpected. She openly discusses facing setbacks, such as initially not being accepted into medical school, but demonstrates how taking a year to pursue her interest in AI not only made her a stronger applicant but also gave her skills that medicine increasingly needs. Her advice for grad school hopefuls is refreshingly honest: don't just tick boxes—find areas that truly excite you, because that passion will fuel your motivation and help you stand out. The conversation also addresses the ever-present challenge of imposter syndrome. Zoiya Morell reveals how she overcame doubts by focusing on progress, experimenting fearlessly, and realizing that even experts are often still figuring things out—especially in fast-evolving fields like AI. Another core theme is the significance of building relationships. From creating a thriving AI interest group to forging research collaborations that bridge medicine and technology, Zoiya Morell demonstrates how supportive connections with peers and professors can open doors and enrich your graduate journey. Throughout the episode, listeners gain practical tips on time management, self-care, and leveraging unique skills. If you're curious about how to blend seemingly disparate fields, overcome obstacles, or make the most of graduate school, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in to hear an authentic story of resilience and innovation, and discover how you can carve your own extraordinary path in graduate education. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, we have a great opportunity to be able to work together as you are planning your own journey to graduate education. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school goes through a personal journey of reflection, of exploration, of just a deep dive into who they are and who they want to be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: And as you go through that, there are things that you can do, things that you can do right now to start to prepare yourself to have success in this journey, whether you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about this, whether you've already applied and maybe gotten accepted to a graduate program, maybe you're even in a graduate program right now. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do to be able to find that success. And that's why this show exists. Every week, I love being able to talk to different people with different experiences and share them with you. All of the people that have been on this show in the past and in the future, have gone to graduate school or are going through graduate school and are sharing their own journey with you. And you can learn from that journey that they've been on. Why? Why? Because they've made mistakes, they've done things right, and they've been able to figure things out along the way, things that might be able to help you, things you can add to your own toolbox and be able to push you in the right direction. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Zoya Morel is with us today, and Zoya is a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint. She did both a bachelor's and a master's degree at the University of Michigan Flint, and we'll talk about that journey. But now she's actually a current doctor of medicine student at Central Michigan University, so we'll talk about that as well. I'm really excited to have her here, to be able to have her tell more about her own experience. Zoya, thanks so much for being here today. Zoiya Morell [00:02:21]: Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:22]: I am really excited to be able to have you here and to learn a little bit more about your own journey. And I always start these opportunities with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I said you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. While you were here as an undergraduate student, you were doing a biology degree in pre-med and focusing on that. And at some point, at some point you said to yourself, I'm not done. I'm not done. I want to keep going. And one of the interesting parts is that you chose a field that I would not have expected. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:58]: And I want you to talk a little bit about this. So bring me back to that point where you said to yourself, I'm not done. I want to keep going. What was going through your head? Zoiya Morell [00:03:05]: I actually get this question a lot, and it sounds kind of weird. Like, how did I go from biology, no computer background, to, oh, I'm going to get a master's degree in AI? Which huge learning curve, by the way, jumping into it. I did not have a coding background. I knew nothing. So a lot of people wonder what made you make that jump? And they seem unconnected, but they're not. So for one, while I was in the biology program, I kept noticing AI come up as this is what doctors are going to be using. This is how we're doing research. It was everywhere. Zoiya Morell [00:03:38]: And anyone who knows me knows I hate not understanding. understanding something and I kept seeing AI come up and be like, oh, why don't I understand this yet? Why is it everywhere? So when I, for my thesis, I went to the Rogel Cancer Center for a symposium and I asked every single professor there, hey, how are you using AI in medicine today? And almost every single one of them said, I know we're using it. I don't know why or how. I was like, okay, we need to investigate this more. I was applying to med schools and I only applied to a handful. It's really expensive, so I just did the ones in Michigan cuz that's really where I wanted to be. And while I was doing that, I got one interview and didn't hear anything back from the handful I applied to. So I was thinking at this point, I'm probably not getting in. Zoiya Morell [00:04:54]: I have to change my strategy of how I'm gonna do things. What can I do in the meantime? At the same time, I found out I had earned a Scholarship from the Maize and Blue Award, which was amazing. That was kind of everything aligned because this was the first year they offered scholarships for that, and that would've given money towards the master's program and a GSRA position. I didn't know what that was, but I was like, hey, let's apply. So I decided I might be able to get a master's degree done in a year if I speedrun it. Then, hey, by some miracle, if I get accepted into med school, I'll get it done before med school. Yeah. Crazy idea there. Zoiya Morell [00:05:33]: It was, I didn't think both would happen at the same time. So I looked into the different master's programs and I had seen a lot of really scammy emails that were like, get a master's in public health. And I found they were really doing nothing for medicine. Everyone was getting them. No one was using them. So I looked into it more and I thought, what's the thing I see coming up everywhere that I'm just fascinated by? that I feel like I need to understand. And that was AI. If I had looked back to my 5-year-old self, I would've noticed these threads all along. Zoiya Morell [00:06:05]: I used to play a computer game called Creatures that was both based on biology where, you know, you raise these little creatures, you control their neurons and their hormones and all these things. So I was learning biology, but it was also one of the world's first neural networks. So it turns out I had been doing this stuff and fiddling with computers as well as biology for as long as I could remember. It was being able to bring them together that was like, oh, this is where I need to be. So I applied to the master's degree and got in. That was excellent. And I was really able to— and surprised by how much I was able to bring medicine into AI. It's like the 2 fields are meant for each other, but there's not a lot of people that can bridge that gap. Zoiya Morell [00:06:49]: So. That was my thought process there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:52]: Now, you mentioned the fact that in that journey through your master's degree, you didn't come in with any background and you had to really jump in with both feet and learn a lot along the way. And I would say that most individuals thinking about a graduate degree probably feel like they have at least some understanding of what they're applying for. and what they're getting themselves into. And with the fact that you didn't, I'm sure that there was a lot of learning, but also a lot of transition that you had to go through to be able to prepare yourself for getting into and getting through that program with success. And you did very well in that program. You graduated with a 4.0. I mean, you, you did very well in that program. So talk to me a little bit about in that program alone, And jumping into a completely unfamiliar field, what did you have to do as you transitioned into that graduate program? And what did you have to do as you went through that program to maintain that success for yourself? Zoiya Morell [00:07:57]: So the first thing I would say is just stubbornness, because I needed a 4.0, or I convinced myself that I needed one for med school. I didn't know if that applied to the master's degree, but I was like, well, Let's find out. I better aim for a 4.0. A little bit of undue stress on myself there. But so that was my goal all along was I need to be good enough to maintain my grades in case it does apply to med school. But besides that stubbornness jumping in, I was terrified. I was like, I'm not good enough. I know nothing. Zoiya Morell [00:08:31]: Uh, so I did a lot of self-study. I did a lot of, um, like, hey, how are people programming? today versus, you know, 10 years ago. Where do I start? There was a lot of AI teaching me how to do something and then me trying to do it on my own later. I picked up a lot of little projects that ended up being really helpful later, like the ability to— like, hey, this used to take me forever to do a literature review. What if I can code a thing that just scrapes the web and does it for me? So I started challenging myself to I know I need to know this. How can I use it right now? And this really helped me even more than the classes, which helped a lot as well. Just forcing myself to use it as much as possible, kind of like learning a new language. So that helped a lot. Zoiya Morell [00:09:16]: And then the biggest thing was just, there was this massive shock for me when I went into classes and I realized I actually have an advantage by not knowing things because I know how much I don't know. A lot of students, data scientists come in and they figure they have a good foundation for this. But the thing is with AI is nobody knows anything. And once you realize that, you're in a good position to grow. So I was really shocked by how well I was able to do and figure things out because I didn't have that foundation of this is how things have to be done. I was able to kind of think outside the box. That meant I got things wrong a lot, but it also meant I was able to grow from that and not be stuck in how the way things had to be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: So you did a lot of preparation in your undergrad to go right to med school. Like you said, you went through that med school process at first, and it may not have gone the exact way you wanted, but you decided to pivot and go in a little bit different direction. You made the comment that a lot of people talk about public health or some other area. I know there's post-bac type programs and things that will talk to students about ways in which to kind of bridge between the undergrad and med school. Now that you've done what you did, and you went in a little bit different direction in that regard, and you look back on what you decided to do, if you were talking to other pre-med students as they are going through that process, whether it be through the MCATs or the application process, or they're thinking about, do I need to take a gap year? What kind of advice would you give to them? Zoiya Morell [00:10:51]: First of all, I'd say that med students are some of the most perfectionistic people out there. Don't get on Reddit for advice. You're just gonna see the people that scored perfect MCATs and have thousands of clinical hours and all these impossible goals. Don't check off a checkbox. Just figure out the things that excite you, that you wanna learn about, and pursue that. You could think, oh, it has nothing to do with medicine. It could be anything from fashion design to coding. And if that's what excites you as well as medicine, it's not an either/or, it's a both. Zoiya Morell [00:11:26]: And I promise you, there will be a field where you can bring those together. I've seen so many weird little things, like I'm using AI in medicine constantly. So that would be my advice is if you're looking for a secondary degree before medicine, Don't just go for the same 5 that every med student chooses, because I've talked to a lot of med students and they're not really using their degrees. I don't think it helped them get into med school. It would be good for a separate degree, but don't get it if it doesn't excite you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: So you did decide to go to med school and you did finish that master's degree in 1 year, which is still a feat in itself and being able to get through that. But you went through that year of jumping into AI getting that master's degree, but at the same time going through again the application process. And you applied, like you said, to some programs within the state of Michigan. You ultimately decided to go to Central Michigan University. Talk to me about that search process for yourself and what ultimately made you decide that Central was the right program for you. Zoiya Morell [00:12:33]: So I actually only ever had 2 interviews, uh, with Oakland and with Central, uh, which is not surprising knowing the stats, but also, uh, application processes are kind of rigged. I had nearly perfect everything, like really high MCAT, high GPA. I had research, I had some clinical, but where I was struggling was I didn't have the super sparkly, oh, I went to Africa and, you know, built a hospital from scratch in a year. I didn't have those things that make me sound superhuman. So when I was applying, I was of course gonna get beaten out by the students that had all those things. So between Oakland and Central, when I interviewed, Oakland said, hey, we noticed you updated your application to say you're pursuing a master's degree in AI. Tell us about that. So I talked about that a little bit and they said, you think medicine is going to be replaced by AI, don't you? You think we're not needed anymore. Zoiya Morell [00:13:25]: You know, why do you even want to become a doctor? So negative about it. And I could tell from that instant, oh, I'm not going to get accepted here. They see my master's degree as a really bad thing. Then Central asked the same question. I was like, okay, here we go. This is gonna be the question that they kick me out now. And instead it was, how are you going to use AI in medicine? Hold up, wait, that's way different. And we were able to discuss it and I could tell that the faculty were just as excited as I was about how to bring ethics and humanity into AI and medicine. Zoiya Morell [00:13:56]: We were able to talk about that and to the point where now I'm doing med school research on AI in clinics. So it's really been cool just to see that perspective there. So between their interest in AI and also they shared my interest in rural health, I was like, yes, this is exactly the place for me. Like I could tell the instant I walked in on that interview. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: And I mentioned the fact when you go into a program like AI that you had no background in to then Joining a medical program, again, different ways of learning, different expectations. You're being pushed in completely different directions. Yes, you're going to be able to pull from your biology background and your AI background to be able to help you in that journey. But there's still going to be another big transition that you have to go through. So talk to me about that transition of moving from— the master's and from the undergraduate institution that you came to know and really love to moving to a completely new academic environment and a new type of educational environment. What did you have to do as you transitioned into medical school to find that success and continue that success thus far? Zoiya Morell [00:15:09]: Yes, so I've never been good at rote memorization, which is kind of a shocker. Part of what I loved about the AI degree was it was all based on What can you dream up? What can you fiddle with and create? Whereas med school is completely the opposite. It's, here is a PowerPoint that's 90 slides long. You better have it memorized by the next hour. So that was a massive change in learning environment and types. I will say the first 2 or 3 weeks I was studying over 15 hours a day, I would say, barely sleeping, barely eating. I just Convinced I didn't have the time, and then I had to rework the way I learned because I was realizing I don't learn the same way other people do. Everyone's different. Zoiya Morell [00:15:53]: You know, everyone was saying use Anki flashcards. Turns out flashcards make me want to die inside, so I cannot use them. I had to figure out other ways, and that meant, for instance, how I learn now is I kind of tell myself stories and figure out ways to really understand the information rather than memorizing it. And once I can relate it to specific patients and specific events, then it's much easier for me to recall. We'll see how that applies when I get to the STEP exam. That'll be next year. But it was a different way to learn, and yet I was using a lot of the same tactics as in the AI degree, such as if I don't understand something, I am going to find resources and sit here until I do. A lot of that same stubbornness, and I even use AI a lot to teach myself things and create quizzes for me. Zoiya Morell [00:16:43]: It's not perfectly accurate. You have to do a lot of self-study and checking, but the two have definitely gone hand in hand and it's changed the way I study to the point where at least this past year I was able to have quite a bit of free time. In fact, more than the master's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:56]: Now, one of the things that a lot of times people fight against when i

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  Victors in Grad School

  Harnessing Your Why: Lucine Jarrah's Guide to Grad School Success

  Aug 10, 202619 min

  Are you considering graduate school, or searching for that extra spark of motivation to keep you moving forward on your academic journey? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School delivers a truly inspiring conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Lucine Jarrah , a University of Michigan Flint alumna whose path from undergraduate studies to executive director shines a bright light on the power of purpose. At the heart of this episode is Lucine Jarrah 's belief in making a difference through community work. As she recalls, her undergraduate years were marked by activism, organizing with nonprofits such as the Arab American Heritage Council, and building programs aimed at creating social impact. When the idea of graduate school first took root, it wasn't about collecting another credential or checking a box. Lucine Jarrah sought deeper knowledge and tools to drive meaningful change: "I really wanted to understand how systems shape people's lives. That's why I specifically sought out the Master's of Social Work with an emphasis in community change" ( 03:13 ). Throughout their conversation, Dr. Christopher Lewis and Lucine Jarrah explore the transition from undergraduate to graduate life—a leap magnified by the isolation of the pandemic. Building community and camaraderie, even in digital or distanced formats, became a lifeline "[We had to find a way to sort of be in community with each other so that it was safe, but also figure out how we can continue to lean on each other, support each other, and get through this time together" ( 07:19 ). One of the most powerful themes of the episode is learning to manage self-doubt. Like many graduate students, Lucine Jarrah faced imposter syndrome, intensified by the remote learning environment. Her advice? Seek mentors, stay involved, and never shy away from new opportunities—even if they feel intimidating at first. "Having wonderful people in the program… gave me the confidence, the mentorship, the guidance that I needed to ultimately feel like I could pursue all of the things that I wanted" ( 11:44 ). Balance, too, is indispensable— Lucine Jarrah describes the challenge of juggling work, family, and studies, and stresses the importance of organizing, prioritizing, and giving yourself permission to rest. If you're searching for a graduate school guide grounded in real-world experience, listen to Lucine Jarrah 's story. The episode is filled with wisdom about growth, resilience, and the importance of knowing your "why." Tune in, get inspired, and take the first step toward your own journey of purpose-driven success. Ready to listen? Don't miss this uplifting episode of Victors in Grad School . Your future self will thank you. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work together and help you to be able to move forward in that graduate school journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that goes to graduate school has to go through an individualized journey for themselves to be able to get from where they are to where they want to be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: And what's important though, is that there are things that you can do, things that you could do right now that can help you to start thinking Like you're going to graduate school, thinking like you should be to be able to prepare yourself for graduate school, but also doing other things to be able to prepare you for graduate school. And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think in a different way, but also prepare yourself for graduate school in many different ways, because every person is going to have a little bit of a different experience in graduate school. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with those different experiences that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest. Lucine Jarrah is with us today, and Lucine is a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint. She got her undergraduate degree here at the University of Michigan Flint, and then she went on to get her MSW. We'll talk about that journey for herself as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:44]: And I'm really excited to be able to have her here and to share some of her experiences with you. Lucine, thanks so much for being here today. Lucine Jarrah [00:01:51]: Thank you, Chris. Excited to— Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I'm excited to have you here today and to be able to talk about your own journey. And I always love being able to start these interviews with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And I said you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And at some point, at some point in that journey of getting that bachelor's in social work, you made a decision. You made a decision, I'm not going to just stop with that BSW. I'm going to continue on. I'm going to keep going to get my master's in social work. Bring me back to that moment. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:24]: What was going through your head and why did you decide that graduate school was right for you? Lucine Jarrah [00:02:29]: Yeah, I mean, I had a really amazing undergraduate experience here at the University of Michigan Flint. And, you know, during my time, I was really involved on campus. I was organizing on and off campus, actually, and I was getting really excited about thinking, you know, where I wanted to take my career and I was getting involved with some local nonprofits in the area, like the Arab American Heritage Council, and worked on numerous other campaigns related to general GOTV, getting out the vote, and then also like the widely known campaign, the One University campaign, which was about getting more funding and resources to the University of Michigan-Flint. So my role in all of that work and wanting to be able to do more and have more tools at my disposal to do more, I think was the biggest motivating factor for me to start thinking about grad school in a really serious way. I had all this wealth of experience doing organizing work and helping build programs, working with communities, but I really wanted to understand how systems shape people's lives. And that's why I specifically sought out this program at U of M Ann Arbor, the Master's of Social Work with an emphasis in community change. So for me, you know, it wasn't, it didn't feel like a random next step. It felt like something that was really connected to this question that I was having, which was, you know, how can I do more? How can I build my skills, improve my skills, improve my access to tools so that I can do better for my community? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:43]: And really, you answered my next question, which really was, you did go to the University of Michigan for that MSW program. Great program, and definitely has opportunities for being able to delve into the community work research and being able to better understand the people around you. But one of the questions that I always ask is, there are many different master's programs that are out there, and you kind of already explained, and you said that U of M's program was the right fit for you, and maybe that was the only program that you applied to. But were there other things that you were looking at when you were thinking about graduate schools that really allowed for you to be able to whittle that list down? Or was it really that there was just one that you really wanted? Lucine Jarrah [00:04:24]: So what was appealing to me about this particular program was the community change pathway. I think there's always been a very narrow view of social work. People tend to think of social work as very limited in scope when it's actually very, very broad in scope. And so there was something really exciting to me about pursuing something like social work and being able to do work that was very much connected to community organizing and systems-level change and all of that. And so I think it— At the time, I was sort of just asking myself the question, what kind of work am I trying to do? What skills do I need to grow into that work? Am I choosing grad school because it aligns with those goals or because I feel pressured to do it, to check a box? I was really, you know, doing a deep dive into thinking about these questions very seriously. And ultimately, I decided that it was a good fit for me because it was going to allow me to better service my community, which was the ultimate goal for me, and bring that knowledge and expertise back into the community, which is exactly what I did after grad school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:17]: I moved back to Pakistan. Now, every person goes through transitions as they go from one academic program to the next, one level of academic program to the next. And the way you're taught in undergrad is going to be very different than the way you're educated at the graduate level. And the expectations are different. Faculty are going to be expecting different things of you as a learner yourself. Talk to me about the journey that you went on yourself. And you were successful in that journey. You got through, you got your master's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:45]: Talk to me about the transitions that you had to go through. And what did you have to do at the beginning of your graduate school journey to to transition into graduate school? And what did you have to do throughout that graduate school experience to maintain that success? Lucine Jarrah [00:06:01]: That's a good question. And honestly, I went into grad school at a really interesting time. I was— it was in the middle of the pandemic, actually. And so I was going into a field that really, for me, is all about community, right? It's about interacting with people on a pretty regular basis. And so to be living through a time where we were all super disconnected and far away from each other physically was really different and something I had to sort of navigate in the program while I was moving to Ann Arbor and getting acclimated to this new grad school journey. And so that was really different and something that I didn't necessarily expect. And I was really concerned about, you know, how it was going to impact my experience as a student and what I was going to be able to gain from the experience of doing the master's program. Because for me, you know, I was really excited about being able to do my internship and being able to work off campus. Lucine Jarrah [00:06:50]: For me, it was at a place called the Center for Community Well-Being. And so I was really excited about the opportunity to be in person and work with colleagues and talk about programs and do all of that work, you know, in person in a collaborative way, in a way that I was used to doing. And so that was certainly a challenge for me, you know, going into grad school is very different than my undergrad years where I was constantly on campus. I practically lived on campus. And I was, you know, always doing after-school things and always attending community events. And so we had to find a way to sort of be in community with each other so that it was safe, of course, during the pandemic, but also, you know, figure out how we can continue to lean on each other, support each other, and get through this time together. So we, you know, we found ways. It was not without its challenges, but we found ways to get through it. Lucine Jarrah [00:07:35]: And I think the biggest credit I could give is just being able to surround myself with such incredible people who were willing to take that challenge very seriously and still find ways to connect and just be with each other even under difficult circumstances. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:47]: Now, you mentioned a little bit earlier that after graduate school, you went back to your home community. You came back to Flint and you started working back at the Arab American Heritage Council and transitioned into that type of work again, after being involved with them as a younger individual working as an undergraduate student. And you have since transitioned into becoming the executive director of the Arab American Heritage Council. And I guess I would be interested to dig a little bit into the takeaways in the sense that you think back to your, your graduate school experience, and you learned a lot of different things. it relates to community work and relates to working with people. But talk to me about how you're utilizing what you learned in that graduate work on a daily basis. Lucine Jarrah [00:08:38]: Yeah, I mean, it's every day, right? So much of my graduate education was about learning to understand how systems and structures operate. I was in, you know, investigating systems and structures at a federal level. So how do agencies and institutions, organizations that we rely on, how do they operate? How do we ensure and hold them accountable so that they are actually effective and delivering delivering for community in a meaningful way. So a lot of these things I was exploring and unpacking in the classroom throughout my graduate school years. And so coming back into this job, I felt very much equipped with the knowledge and honestly with the advocacy framework to be able to then through the AHC do the work of fighting for that accountability, fighting for that oversight, and thinking more transformatively about how do we want systems to actually work for communities. How can we improve them? How can we imagine better for our communities and not just think in the ways that we've been sort of programmed to think about these systems and structures? So coming into the AHC right after grad school, I thought I was on top of the world and very excited about all of the ways that I was going to be able to utilize what I had learned in school and now actually be able to incorporate it into my work in the advocacy space, in the programming space, in all spaces through the Heritage Council to improve the mission and help advance the mission of the Heritage Council, but also help build the political power of our communities here in Flint and Genesee County so that we can again feel empowered in our ability to imagine better for our society, for our community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:04]: One of the things that I would be interested in hearing from you on is every person as they go on into graduate school at one point or another run up against that proverbial wall when it comes to whether or not they feel like they truly belong, whether or not they feel like they know enough, that they are enough, that they can be enough to be able to be successful in that graduate school experience that they're going And many times they call it imposter syndrome, but there's other pieces with self-esteem and other things like that that go into it when you're entering into that new type of environment. Talk to me about how that impacted you and whether you did face imposter syndrome or self-doubt during graduate studies, and how did you handle it? Lucine Jarrah [00:10:50]: Oh yeah, I absolutely did. And I think it was exacerbated by the fact that we were all so disconnected and far away from each other physically, right? So I would say I leaned heavily on identifying mentors in grad school and And not really shying away from any opportunity to get involved in things, even if it felt a little bit nerve-wracking or something that I perhaps wasn't used to doing or didn't have the skill set as somebody else perhaps who was going into it. So really not shying away from the opportunity, but leaning on folks in that space to help guide me and feeling like I, I could build those relationships and lean on those relationships for support. And that helped me a lot. It helped me establish incredible mentors throughout my time in my grad school program. And it allowed me to feel more confident in my ability to take on new challenges. And so, it was certainly a process, and I did go through periods where it felt particularly challenging for me to show up in certain spaces because I didn't necessarily feel like I was meant to be there. But I think having wonderful people in the program constantly in communication with me and working with me and so many other spaces, it gave me the confidence, it gave me the mentorship, the guidance that I needed to ultimately feel like I could pursue all of the things that I wanted to pursue. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:59]: And how did you balance both school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going through graduate school? Lucine Jarrah [00:12:06]: Oh, I have no idea. I have no idea. It was hard. It was really, really hard. I, you know, I had to find a way to get organized. I had to make sure that I wasn't burning myself out. I was still very much connected to the Heritage Council even throughout my grad school years. Actually, that's sort of how I was able to ultimately pursue the executive director job afterwards was staying so connected to the council. Lucine Jarrah [00:12:28]: throughout undergrad and in grad school. So I was working full-time, I was in school, I, you know, I had family commitments. It was, it was very, very difficult. And I definitely went through periods where I, I had to sort of sit down with myself and reground and, and really think about, you know, you're gonna burn yourself out if you don't take a time to get organized, take time to rest, take time to prioritize things. So it was really a mix of that, right? It was really thinking about, okay, what are the things that I absolutely need to prioritize here and, and commit to? And what are some other things that I can maybe put on the back burner for a little bit? and come back to at a later time. And so again, I think this question is also connected to the last one, which is that having incredible mentors and guidance in grad school, whether that's through faculty, staff, other students, or the relationships I was building with the community, they helped me along the way. They reminded me of the importance of taking time to rest and take breaks and not feel like I have to say yes to everything all the time. And also think about, you know, what does it mean to like meaningfully prioritize the things that I'm doing so that I can commit to them in the ways that I, I want to, right? Because that's the other thing about me is I really want to give 100% commitment to everything that I do. Lucine Jarrah [00:13:34]: And of course, we're all human. And so doing that for 4 or 5, 6 different things just means you're gonna burn yourself out really fast. So yeah, I definitely give lots of credit to just the wonderful people in my life who continue and to this day continue to remind me to take time to talk about— Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:49]: You talked about the relationships and the mentors that you built and things like that. Talk to me about those relationships and what you had to do to be able to build those relationships with faculty or peers that helped you to find success in that journey. Lucine Jarrah [00:14:06]: Yeah, I think this is the other thing that can be, you know, nerve-wracking about grad school, going to a grad school that, of course, U of M is a little bigger than U of M Flint. And so the benefit of being at U of M Flint is it felt like you could end class and go up to your professor and talk to them and even walk them to their next class or meeting or go to their office hours. Having the smaller

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  Victors in Grad School

  Navigating Grad School: Rebecca Pettengill on Balance, Growth, and Resilience

  Aug 3, 202615 min

  Are you considering graduate school, currently navigating your graduate journey, or reflecting on your academic path? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School delivers invaluable advice and reassurance for anyone on this transformative journey. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis and featuring special guest Rebecca Pettengill , Manager of Foundation and Corporate Relations at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint, the conversation centers on not just navigating graduate school, but truly thriving. A Non-Linear Academic Journey One of the most striking themes from this episode is Rebecca Pettengill 's unconventional path. Her undergraduate degree took 13 years to complete due to balancing full-time work and part-time studies, proving that there's no single right way to pursue higher education. She's candid about the challenges and delays, yet highlights how building relationships during her undergraduate years later supported her academic and professional pursuits. Strategic Choices and Growth When selecting a graduate program, Rebecca Pettengill intentionally chose an MBA over a master's in public administration to diversify her resume and broaden her opportunities. The cohort structure of the program offered much-needed structure and camaraderie, making the rigorous journey more manageable. She also underscores how workplace flexibility and supportive family dynamics were key in finding a balance between professional, academic, and personal responsibilities. Navigating Barriers and Self-Doubt Rebecca Pettengill is refreshingly honest about the hurdles she encountered—especially preparing for the GMAT after years away from mathematics. Her perseverance, conditional admission, and commitment to hard work were pivotal to her success. Study groups and supportive peers, including international students, created a collaborative environment where everyone's unique strengths contributed to collective achievements. Impostor syndrome and self-doubt are realities for many, and Rebecca Pettengill is no exception. She shares how working with a diverse cohort and celebrating small wins helped her realize everyone brings something valuable to the table—even when uncertainty creeps in. The Power of Relationships Strong relationships were central to Rebecca Pettengill 's journey—whether with faculty who became mentors or classmates who evolved into a reliable professional network. These bonds didn't just provide academic support; they continued to open career doors and create opportunities long after graduation. Advice for Future Graduate Students Rebecca Pettengill encourages prospective graduate students to view a master's degree as both a commitment to themselves and a catalyst for lifelong learning. In a world of constant change, advanced education offers both adaptability and new possibilities—regardless of your career stage. Ready to hear more firsthand wisdom and inspiring stories? Listen to this episode of Victors in Grad School for actionable strategies and a reassuring reminder: your unique path can lead to incredible success. Tune in now and take the next step in your graduate school journey! TRANSCRIPT Rebecca Pettengill [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are getting yourself ready to move toward those goals that you've set in front of you. And for you, it may be that you've already made that application to graduate school. Maybe you're just thinking about graduate school. Maybe you're in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: No matter where you are in this journey, it is a journey. Because if you're at the very beginning or you're getting close to the end, there are things that you can do right now to be able to find success in this graduate school journey. And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different tips, tricks, things that you can do, some things you can put into your own toolbox to help you to find that success. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school themselves, and for them to allow you to learn from their experience to help you on your journey. Today we got another great guest. Rebecca Pettengill is with us today. Rebecca is the manager of Foundation and Corporate Relations at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: And she has her own graduate school journey, as I've already mentioned. She did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, getting a bachelor's degree in public administration, and then went on from there. We'll talk about that. But I'm really excited to have Rebecca here. Rebecca, thanks so much for being here today. Rebecca Pettengill [00:01:46]: Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and for sharing your own journey. And I wanna turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And once you got done And then with that degree, you went off, you got some experiences, and had some opportunities to work at the University of Michigan Flint doing development work. And at some point in that transition from undergrad into your professional life, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to not be done. And you decided to go to graduate school. Bring me back to that point. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: What was going through your head? And what made you decide that that was the right time? to go to graduate school? Rebecca Pettengill [00:02:28]: Well, I had sort of languished in earning my bachelor's degree. I worked full-time and part-time all the while I was working on my degree. And of course, as you grow up, things change in your mind about what you hope for in your career or your life goals. And so, you know, I originally kind of started out in a business degree and then moved more to the public administration side. And that took me 13 years. I don't recommend it highly to incoming freshmen to take that route, but because it delays your earning power later on in life. So, but anyway, I did take that path and everything happens for a purpose, I think, in life and all your experiences add up. So I had a lot of courses all throughout the university and with my career at U of M Flint, actually that turned out to be beneficial because Professors knew me, other department secretaries knew me, people in administration knew me, and, you know, that served me well going forward. Rebecca Pettengill [00:03:38]: And then I decided to add the master's degree and just to expand my resume, I decided to do the business degree for my master's for a couple reasons. Just like I said, to make my resume a little more broad. And to give me other experiences. At the time, I was working at the recreation center, which was very much considered a business unit at the campus at that time. And so we had goals there as far as earning our keep and not costing the university too much money. Yeah. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:18]: So you decided to do the MBA and going through the MBA program, you got your bachelor's in public administration and you could have done a master's in public administration or some other type of a degree. What was it about the MBA that made you decide that that was the right fit and the right program for you? Rebecca Pettengill [00:04:35]: Well, it was really at the time a little bit where I was at the recreation center in managing the business office there. And then also in the undergrad program, I had taken a lot of the courses, or a number of the courses were shared as master's and bachelor's courses. So I had had some coursework that was already part of the public administration master's. So that was sort of an impetus to do something different with the master's level degree. And so the MBA was kind of in my wheelhouse of experience and so on. I also was drawn to it a little bit because at that time it was set up as a cohort. And so I knew I'd have a set of people and I had a sort of a regimented progression to get through it. And that was helpful as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:30]: Now, for everyone that goes through a graduate program, you go through a transition. You go through a transition from going from undergrad into first, it was for you, for work. And then you went from work back into school after a few years of not being in school. And there is a distinct transition because the way you're educated as an undergraduate student is not the same as the way in which you're educated as a graduate student. And you have to do things to not only set yourself up for success, but be able to prepare yourself for ultimate success throughout the program. So as you think back to that graduate degree and going through the MBA, what were the things that you had to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? And what were some of the things that you had to do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey? Rebecca Pettengill [00:06:19]: Yeah, a big challenge actually was the GMAT test. And that was where my relationships through campus kind of paid off because they took a chance on me. I didn't score very well in the mathematics section. It had been a long time since I had been in high school mathematics and done those things. And even my undergrad mathematics were something that I took early on. So that was quite a challenge to prepare for that test, to go into it. And I was fortunate they gave me a conditional admit, but I had good grades to back it up and worked hard. And that was where all Also, it was really nice to work with study groups. Rebecca Pettengill [00:07:03]: Some of us ended up, because it was a cohort, we kind of followed together. And so there was a group of us that worked together and that was helpful too. We had a nice young man from China who was in our cohort and he was very, very helpful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:19]: Now, when you go into graduate school and you're going through this while you're working and you were working while you were going through this education, there is truly a balance that you have to find. Whether it's through not only your schoolwork, but also balancing work and family and personal responsibilities. Talk to me about what you had to do to find that balance for yourself. Rebecca Pettengill [00:07:44]: Well, I was kind of fortunate because where I worked at the rec center, the office was open a lot. They were open long hours to accommodate members and students. And so I could kind of flex my time if I needed to. Like if I had an exam coming or something like that, I was able to flex my time a little bit. That was helpful. And then also with my particular family life, my husband always worked late as a UPS driver. And so I had a lot of downtime right after work that I was able to utilize to attend classes. Most of my classes were at night. Rebecca Pettengill [00:08:23]: And so that worked out in my instance. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:27]: I was able to negotiate some of those barriers that other people might Every student goes through a point in which, like you said earlier, when you were going through that GMAT and you hadn't had math in a really long time, that you feel like, am I made for this? Is this right? Am I good enough? And there's that feeling of imposter syndrome or self-doubt that sneaks in. Talk to me about how you faced imposter syndrome or self-doubt during your graduate studies, and how did you handle it? Rebecca Pettengill [00:08:58]: You know, it's interesting because I think In the different courses, there were different challenges. And so, I remember a lot of our people at that time were working at General Motors, and they were engineers and different things like that. And I remember one of the courses that we had was a simulation where we had to create a business and sell the product and up our manufacturing and all of that. And this One fellow and I ended up in a group together, and neither of us really had that experience, but he had a lot of experience in sales. And so we, against all odds, we ended up prevailing in that simulation on a number of occasions, having sales and being able to amp up production because he knew enough about sales to understand all that. And it just showed me that people that might not seem the strongest for your team or the effort sometimes come through and have that secret sauce that you need to be successful. And it showed the benefit of working with other people with other abilities and strengths. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:21]: So as you were going through your graduate school journey and you talked about connecting with students like you did in that experience and going through graduate school, a lot of times one of the things that's important is building those relationships and building relationships with other cohort members, but also building relationships with faculty. Talk to me about the relationships that you were able to build and what relationships ended up being most impactful for you and why. Rebecca Pettengill [00:10:48]: Well, the course that my career took after having the MBA, I ended up working in the development office or institutional advancement, it might be called now, and I ended up Being the first person that worked in corporate and foundation relations at U of M Flint, there were people in the Ann Arbor campus, and that was helpful to have them as mentors, I would say. But having a diverse set of experiences ended up serving me well in that position, having to assess opportunities for the campus and then knowing the faculty and being able to find out who might be able to take on the opportunity, the grant opportunity or research opportunity. Understanding a little bit about research and how that works was really helpful. And so all of those things kind of just added up to make this a really good fit. Getting that business understanding, having those— the faculty members to go back to and ask questions. And then the ongoing relationships with different students that were in my, my MBA cohort mostly has been really rewarding. We had a lot of really good people that were in our group and we got quite close, I would say. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:13]: Now, thinking back to your graduate school experience and thinking about what you had to do to find success in that journey, and you think— and thinking about others that are thinking about graduate school for themselves, no matter if it's in the MBA or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Rebecca Pettengill [00:12:34]: Because my experience is heavily with the university in the beginning, I would say that if you are able to pursue the master's degree, whatever it might be, I think there's great benefit in having the bachelor's degree and the basis of information that provides you for life and for many different types of experiences. And then to be able to go on and add another layer to that at the master's level, I think it demonstrates a commitment to yourself as an individual and your willingness to continue to learn in life. And it's just so important, especially now as things are changing so fast in our world. And new discoveries and all of those things. It's important to have that extra learning, and I just highly recommend it. It just gives you so many more options and opportunities to pursue, especially when you're younger. Well, even when you're an old lady like me, it served me well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:41]: Well, Rebecca, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your own journey in your graduate education, and I truly wish you all the best. Rebecca Pettengill [00:13:50]: Thank you very much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:51]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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  Victors in Grad School

  Finding Success in Grad School: Gillian Wilhelm's Physician Assistant Journey

  Jul 27, 202639 min

  What does it really take to chart a successful course through graduate school? That's the question at the heart of this week's episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, where Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Gillian Wilhelm , a second-year Physician Assistant student at the University of Michigan-Flint, to open up about her own journey—the doubts, the decisions, and the lessons learned along the way. The episode kicks off with Dr. Christopher Lewis emphasizing that every grad school journey is unique, but that hearing from others can help you add tools to your "success toolbox." Gillian Wilhelm 's story is no exception. She traces her decision to enter the physician assistant (PA) field back to her junior year at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Like so many, the uncertainty of that period forced her to re-evaluate her goals. She weighed her options—medicine, nursing, or something else entirely—before discovering the PA career through a friend's recommendation. What resonated was the balance of hands-on patient care and work-life flexibility, ultimately fueling her passion. Preparation, Gillian Wilhelm shares, was key—not just academically, but practically. She discusses the importance of researching programs, understanding prerequisites, and gaining patient care experience. Her pragmatic tip? Make sure you meet admissions criteria before sinking money into applications—a lesson learned through creating spreadsheets, taking extra courses, and shadowing various healthcare professionals. Once in grad school, juggling personal and academic expectations became crucial. Gillian Wilhelm candidly discusses the reality of adjusting to a demanding program: learning how to study again, relying on the support of therapy and family, and experimenting with different study and self-care strategies until she found what worked for her. She's honest about imposter syndrome but stresses the power of simply "showing up for yourself" each day, whether or not you feel confident. The episode also highlights the importance of community. Building relationships with classmates—often by just suggesting a walk to class—becomes a lifeline, as does forming connections with thoughtful faculty who genuinely want students to succeed. Gillian Wilhelm found meaning in serving as cohort president, helping bridge students and faculty concerns, reinforcing the theme that success often grows from collaboration and communication. If you're considering graduate school, this episode is a must-listen. Through Gillian Wilhelm 's authentic reflections, "Victors in Grad School" offers not just advice but genuine encouragement: do your homework, embrace your unique journey, build your community, and remember—it's about progress, not perfection. Tune in to the full episode for inspiration and wisdom you can carry into your own academic adventure. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to sit down, to talk to you, to work with you as you are preparing to go on your own graduate school journey. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school has to go through a distinct and unique journey for themselves. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: But there are things that you can do, things that you can do right now that'll help you to prepare yourself for graduate school. That's why every week, I love being able to provide you with opportunities to learn, to grow, and to meet new people with different experiences that can share some of their own graduate school journey with you. That's why this podcast exists. It is here to help you to be able to listen to other people's experiences, to take in what works, set aside what doesn't work, and add some tools to your toolbox that'll help you to move forward in your own journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest. Jillian Wilhelm is with us. I'm really excited to have Jillian here with us today. Jillian is a second year graduate student in the physician Assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: And, and we're gonna be talking about the journey that she has gone through to be able to get to where she is today and that she's going through right now to be able to help you in your own graduate school journey. Jillian, thanks so much for being here today. Gillian Wilhelm [00:01:41]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Lewis. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Well, it is my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to talk to you. And I always love to start these conversations with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And what I'd love to do is go back. I wanna go back in time, back to that time back at University of Michigan. You were working on that bachelor's degree in neuroscience. And whether it was during your time at Ann Arbor or at some other point, there was a point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done. I'm going to continue on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: And you had that spark in your head that said, I want to be a physician assistant. Bring me back to that point. And what was going through your head. Gillian Wilhelm [00:02:18]: That point for me came in my junior Year at U of M Ann Arbor, it was the middle of COVID I was living on campus because I was an ra. So at that time, I'm not sure how familiar you or anyone else listening was or is with the situation that we were in. But because of the super high number of cases, the university was instructed to kind of shut down and have all students who were able to return to their homes, return homes. And we had a mostly online experience then for the rest of that semester. But because I had the opportunity to be an ra, we still had students, athletes, international students who were there. So I was still living on campus. And being in the middle of the pandemic, we really didn't know what was going on. But I knew even still then when I went, when I started my bachelor's, I knew I wanted to do something in medicine, and I just wasn't fully sure what. Gillian Wilhelm [00:03:12]: And then being in the middle of the pandemic, we didn't really know what was going to happen. We didn't know how long we were going to be in that situation for. And I was having some doubts of, well, do I want to go the medical school route? That's a lot of other schooling, a lot of research, and just volunteering. Shadowing opportunities are super limited. I could do nursing, but that would be an extra bachelor's degree. And I was already most of the way towards my neuroscience degree. And I actually had a really good friend reach out to me. She was also in college at the time. Gillian Wilhelm [00:03:45]: We'd been friends since kindergarten. And she sent me this article about what a PA was, and I had no idea of what a PA was. I'd never heard of them before. And she was like, I found this career, and this seems, like, really great. And it seems like exactly what you and I want to do. And I read the article, and it was truly just like, it mentioned work, life, balance, it mentioned still all of the patient interaction I was looking for. And I just thought it was a really unique thing. It was a role that was really rooted in teamwork. Gillian Wilhelm [00:04:19]: You got to be a collaborator with many different people, many different professions, whether outpatient or inpatient. And that was that, like, you mentioned, that kind of seed or that kind of spark. And I just. I kept looking more into the profession, and as the year progressed and as I looked closer to graduating, I started looking more into the role, and I realized, like, that's what I want to do after I graduate. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:42]: Now, I know that after you graduated, you went, you got some experiences, some work experiences that allowed for you to prepare yourself for applying to physician assistant programs. Because for most PA programs you're going to need to see at least about 500 hours. Sometimes it's, it's much more than that. Sometimes it's right at the minimum. But, but you do have to have some hours of direct patient contact experience. And you did do that. You went out and you had some experiences for yourself to prepare yourself. And as you got into that year when you were applying to physician assistant programs, I'm sure that you were looking across many different types of schools and trying to identify, okay, what's the best fit for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: You ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. But talk me through that process for yourself and what did you do to be able to not only prepare yourself for that academic, for that admission journey, but also how did you look and try to break down for yourself what were the programs that you were going to apply to and how did you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you? Gillian Wilhelm [00:05:50]: So I did a lot of research when I was looking at programs. I know statistically it's such a growing like profession and a growing field that the admissions journey is, can be very hard and very challenging just because it's a super high demand field and you have a lot of wonderful applicants who are all applying for that, those limited number of spots as you. But my journey was really just a lot of research. I knew I graduated from U of M at Ann Arbor in 2022 and then I applied during the, I think it was like the 2425 CYC because then with U of M Flint we started in January of 25. So I knew I was researching quite a bit with some classes have like, or some schools have term limits. So some of the classes I took for my degree back in like my sophomore year. So like 2019, 2020, there are limits with like how long they'll accept those classes versus like how soon you can take. So some places have five year limits, some places have 10. Gillian Wilhelm [00:06:52]: So I had to do a lot of research to make sure that like the schools I was interested in I could actually like meet the admissions criteria for. Because applying to PA school is super expensive and I didn't want to put money towards application fees to a school that I knew like wouldn't accept my credits or my classes or things like that. So that was definitely something I had to spend a lot of time looking into. I had a big spreadsheet, a lot of different notes. My Google Drive got a lot of use, which was Great. And then I ended up as well, working as a physical therapy aide for about five months. And then I was a nursing, a certified nursing assistant for the majority of my patient care experience. So that was also something I knew that I wanted to be in a hospital and I wanted to really kind of immerse myself in that, like, healthcare environment because I had never been in an environment like that before, so I wanted to really get a feel. Gillian Wilhelm [00:07:48]: And even though I knew I wanted to be a PA, I wanted to see like how PAs were in kind of that natural environment. So with working. And then I also was fortunate to shadow a couple different PAs. I shadowed one in the ER, I shadowed a cardiology PA and then as well as an interventional radiology PA. So I got to see how they interacted with patients and other healthcare professionals. And those all really solidified. That's what I wanted to do for a career and kept me going through the admissions process for sure. Because when you're sitting there staring at multiple essays, your big spreadsheet, and you're trying to just figure everything out and keep everything going, you kind of need that extra motivation. Gillian Wilhelm [00:08:27]: You can just remember, like, I really saw how that PA worked with that patient and that was really key for me, is to remind myself like, that's where I want to be. So to make all of the paperwork and the research worth it. And then for U of M specifically I, or U of M Flint specifically, I really was interested in the fact that they have a 16 month didactic year. That was something that Most programs are 12 months didactic and then 12 months for clinicals. And as someone who I had been out of school for a couple years and while I still had a big science background, I mean, you, if you're not using all of that knowledge all day every day, sometimes it can be a little tricky to review back on and get back in that mindset of a student. And I thought the 16 month didactic would be a great opportunity for me to just have maybe a little more time to just like kind of flush out some topics. So that was definitely a draw as well. And then, I mean, I graduated from U of M Ann Arbor, so why not try and keep it in the U of M family, you know? But yeah, and then I went. Gillian Wilhelm [00:09:27]: I was lucky enough to be selected for an interview and I really liked the professors. All of the students I spoke with on my interview day were all just had really positive things to say and I just thought their admissions process was truly holistic. I think that's something A lot of programs say, and I can't speak to other programs, but when I went for my interview and then as well as just like the supplemental essays that you. The prompts that U of M Flint asked about, those were things that I felt truly added on to my application. Because definitely some other programs, it's like they ask for essays that I kind of felt were. I was repeating myself with the other things I had had in my application. And U of M's prompts were just. It allowed me to show like, other aspects of my character and my ethics and kind of like my moral compass. Gillian Wilhelm [00:10:18]: And I just thought that was really cool. And I made sure to let them know that too when they asked us, like for questions or feedback because it was just something else that I felt made me stand out and just like kind of showed how else or how I carry myself and who I am outside of just the same essays that you kind of send to everybody. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:36]: Now, for every person that's going to graduate school, there is a transition that you go through. Now you had a transition out of undergrad into the workforce. You worked for a little bit of time and then you made a transition to graduate school. And as you make those transitions, there's definitely a different bar when it comes to going from undergrad to grad. There's a different way that you're being educated and the expectations are also different. And every person has to be able to maneuver through that for themselves. Now, you found success in graduate school. Thus far, you've been able to maneuver through this process for yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:12]: And as you think about the transition that you had going into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey thus far? Gillian Wilhelm [00:11:27]: That's a great question. The first thing that came to mind, truthfully, was having a good relationship with my therapist, which obviously is not specifically academic related, but that was something I knew I wanted to continue. Just having another person to kind of like a third party to just like really hear me out and help me like process and work through the big, like, emotional changes and just amount of stress I was under with that transition. So he definitely helped me through quite a bit of that and helped me just process and make some good changes to help keep me mentally healthy as well as making sure I could get to class and get through class okay. So that was my first thought for sure for the big transitions. Otherwise, definitely relearning how to be a student. Because like you said, I'd been in the workforce for a few years, and I hadn't truly been, like, studying and getting back into that mindset and kind of unlearning older, not very helpful study habits. I think I had a unique undergrad experience just with being in the pandemic and having constant, like, academic changes of, like, if we could be in person, if we can't, if we're online. Gillian Wilhelm [00:12:35]: So those were challenging to build, like, good study habits, at least for me. So then coming into grad school with having just even a greater amount of material, but having it come a lot faster and just being more unfamiliar with quite a bit of the material, that was definitely something where I had to really just try different study techniques and different study habits. And as I kind of went through, I realized what was working and what wasn't. So that was definitely something I had to continuously work on and realize, like, hey, I tried this last week. I don't think it worked for me. Or last week, last month, last unit, last body system. Let's try something else this time. And that's something I hear quite a bit from just, like, talking with my other classmates or even myself, looking back to where I was, like, starting the program, for some people, they really figure out what works for them and how to study and like that, and they stick with it. Gillian Wilhelm [00:13:31]: And that's great for me. It definitely took some trial and error. And I, when asked about it, I truly don't feel like I really had my good study habits down until, like, last fall. It took me a couple semesters, and I'm happy I got to that point. But I'm also okay with the fact that I went through some trial and error, and now I know, like, what sticks and what helps. So that's definitely a big part of the transition, is relearning how to be a student, especially if you're not someone who just finished your undergrad and went right into the program, which is wonderful and advantageous if you have those good study habits. But it was just something I had to relearn and kind of go through. And then I think otherwise. Gillian Wilhelm [00:14:09]: For the transition, to set myself up for success, I think it was still keeping in touch with my family. My family is, like, my biggest support system. Coming into the program, I really didn't know anybody. I didn't have any, like, former classmates. My friends who were also on their PA journey were going to different programs. So that was definitely. I leaned on my family quite a bit, and I still do, and I'm very thankful for their support and their Understanding and picking up the phone, even if it's late at night when I just need to talk about something. So that's, I appreciate that a great amount as well, more than I could probably ever say in words otherwise. Gillian Wilhelm [00:14:46]: Setting up for success. You just have to keep showing up. I think that was the other thing I learned was even when I was super tired and frustrated of I still couldn't understand a topic or I didn't get through as many questions as I wanted to the night before. Still showing up as much as you can every day and just be willing to just keep showing up for yourself and just keep going. Okay, I know yesterday was hard, but maybe today will be a little better. And that's all you can really do is like just keep showing up for yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:14]: Now talk to me a little bit about that connection and that balance that you had to find for yourself. Because you know you're in a program that is a high stress program. It is, there's a lot of expectations. You are on campus and it is a full time program. So it is an intense program. So talk to me about balance and how did you balance school, work, family, per

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  Victors in Grad School

  Embracing Detours: Dr. Keith Kelley's Lessons for Grad School Success

  Jul 20, 202634 min

  Thinking about graduate school? Whether you're a seasoned professional considering a return to academia or a recent grad mapping out your next steps, the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast offers invaluable insights you won't want to miss. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Keith Kelley , Associate Dean and Professor at the University of Michigan-Flint's School of Management, for a candid conversation about the winding, often unexpected paths of graduate education. From his undergraduate days at the University of New Hampshire to his journey through master's and doctoral programs at Florida International University, Dr. Keith Kelley shares stories of setbacks, pivots, perseverance, and growth. Embracing a Nonlinear Path One of the episode's central themes is that the road to and through grad school is rarely straightforward. Dr. Keith Kelley openly discusses his early academic struggles, time spent working and traveling, and how these life experiences led him to find his true academic passions later on. He reminds listeners that it's okay if your journey isn't perfectly mapped out—sometimes, the best opportunities arise from unexpected detours. Humility, Commitment, and Resilience Returning to school after time in the workforce required Dr. Keith Kelley to humble himself and fully commit to being a student again. He emphasizes embracing lifelong learning, asking questions, and being open to growth. When setbacks happen—as they inevitably do—persistence and support networks are key. Dr. Keith Kelley candidly reflects on his own moments of doubt and the friends and mentors who helped him dust himself off and keep moving forward. Balancing Life and Learning Grad school isn't just about academic rigor—it's about balance. Dr. Keith Kelley offers practical advice on time management, scheduling, and leveraging campus resources, from study spaces to mental health services. He stresses the importance of making space for family, friends, and recovery, which ultimately helps mitigate burnout and enhances productivity. The Power of Community and Networking Perhaps the most enduring lesson is the value of building a strong network. The relationships you form with classmates, professors, and colleagues can lead to professional opportunities, mentorship, and vital support throughout your career and personal life. If you're seeking real-world advice—and some entertaining stories—from someone who's walked the walk, be sure to listen to this episode. "Victors in Grad School" delivers the perspective, encouragement, and tools you need to succeed on your own grad school journey. Tune in and start charting your path today! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love that you show up, that you are here trying to prepare yourself for this journey that you're going on. I call it a journey because it is a journey. And for every person thinking about graduate school, it is a journey that you will be on from the very beginning as you're starting to look at programs, through the application process, as you matriculate and enter into the graduate program itself. And through the program, you're going to be learning things, you're going to be adjusting things, and you're going to be figuring things out as you go along. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:53]: This podcast was developed to help you just with that, to be able to provide you with some perspectives, some experiences, some things that you can think about to help you to find success, success in your graduate school journey sooner. That's why every week I love having different people with different experiences that can share their own journey with you. And today we've got another great guest. Dr. Keith Kelley is with us today. And Dr. Kelly is a professor of professor in the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint. And he's also the Associate Dean of the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: So I'm really excited to be able to talk to him and to be able to have him share some of his own experiences and introduce him to you as well. Keith, thanks so much for being here. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:01:41]: Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me. And I can't wait to share my experiences and hopefully people can relate to that and maybe learn a little something about my journey and similarities and, of course, lessons that I've learned along the way. Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I know that you did your bachelor's degree at UNH, at UNH Peter Paul College of Business and Economics. You got a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration in International Affairs. And then you went went off, you went off, you got some experiences, you started using that bachelor's degree to do some different things out in the world. But at some point, at some point, you made a decision, you made a decision that you were not done, that you wanted to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:24]: Well, let me go back just about the education part, which you were just referring to. So I actually got my degree from the Whittemore School of Business and Economics renamed. So the name that you gave there. These schools change in name over time. Unh and UNH is my home state. But that's not. What I'm trying. Trying to say here is that I actually started out at Bentley College, which is now a university in Waltham, Mass. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:45]: And probably a lot of people can relate to this is that I didn't do well when I started out. I went to a business school. I basically applied to three schools. I got into all of them. Bentley was my kind of second school, which is a good school, but I couldn't really afford the one that I really wanted to go to, which is Babson. And so when I started out there, I didn't really do particularly well. And after a few years I was like, well, wait a minute, let's pause on this, on my education. And I was kind of lucky in the sense that I took a moment to just kind of explore what was the purpose of me getting an education. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:14]: And then I did a little introspection, a little traveling, and then I ended up in Costa Rica and Venezuela for quite some time. And that's how I came back to the degrees that you mentioned with business and international affairs. This is right about the time when Hugo Chavez had come to power in Venezuela. And I was experiencing, you know, this in real time, what can happen with countries. And so I came back and I was like, okay, well this is something that I'm interested in studying. And then I was fortunate to have support of my grandparents who were. Their alma mater was Unh. And so I got my education there, finished my degrees and. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:43]: And then I was working in a cubicle in a tech company in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Going in at night and going in during the day and it was dark and coming out at night and it was dark. And I was like, is this what my life is going to be like? And at this point I had quite a bit of experience with Latin America. I'm going to South Florida, I'm going to Miami. And so I kind of pursued my career down there and. And then I ended up in working for a number of years like many people do before they go into grad school and, you know, getting to the point where maybe my career is stagnating a little bit, and ended up going back to grad school not for the purposes of just going to get my education, but education is a very non nonlinear process for some of us. And so I never thought that it was going to end up where I am today. But like any great story of grad school, it begins with a man or a woman. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:23]: So I had a girlfriend at the time who was interested in a program at my next alma mater, Florida International University, and she was going back to a music program there. And I said, well, it's time for me to go back to grad school. And they had a great international business program there. So I was like, let me go and join some of their international business programs. It was the best decision I ever made. And so I ended up doing my master's in international business there because there was a real passion with Latin America, and I was really excited about that. And I ended up basically meeting a whole bunch of different cultures and people, and my network there was just fantastic. So I would certainly say that that's one of the best experiences that I had that was unexpected about graduate school. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:59]: And then towards the end of that, this was right around 2007 and 2008, when I was going to grad school, one of the professors there was talking to me about going on and doing my doctorate. And I had never considered that before in my life. And we're heading into a little bit of a recession. I was like, well, maybe this is a sign that this is something that I want to do, because it's really passionate about learning and education and all of these things with business and affairs. And so I ended up down in Miami, nonlinear path, Coming out of the University of New Hampshire, but starting in another college, not doing well, and kind of transitioning myself into various different ways. And that's how I ended up in grad school. Great decision, great network of people. And that's how I got into pursuing my doctorate as well. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:05:35]: Just a lot of things happen by chance. So I would say that my. My opportunities presented themselves, for sure, but none of them were precisely planned out. So say that I could probably relate to a lot of people, but not necessarily 100% sure what they're going for in life. And we always have to pivot and make adjustments. And, you know, education has really paid off for me. It's been one of the best, best tools that I've had for kind of advancing my life and getting to where I am today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:59]: You talked just a second ago about all these transitions. And every person that goes through graduate school has to go through a number of transitions. You go through a transition from for yourself, going and getting a bachelor's degree to transitioning out of education into the workforce. Figuring what that was like. Then as you move down to Miami and you figure out, I'm going to go back to school, then it's transitioning back into school, into now a graduate degree. And even going from a master's degree into a doctorate degree is a transition. As you look at and you think about the transitions that you went through from bachelor's to master's to doctorate degrees, what are some of the things that you had to do to be at the very beginning to be able to set yourself up for success? And what are some things that you had to do as you were going through the programs to maintain and continue that success to the very end? Dr. Keith Kelley [00:06:48]: Yeah, well, let's say it's especially at the, you know, going back to school after spending a number of years just working professionally, you have to make the adjustment of committing to school, committing to education, and humble yourself a little bit as well. So I think that I humbled myself a great deal going into the doctoral programs. But, you know, coming back to graduate school for my master's degree, you really have to commit to your education. And so I think that, as I mentioned, I was pursuing a little bit of an interest in some of the subject matter for international business, and I hadn't really fully committed to the university of the school, but once I started out, I realized, realized that it was really something I had a huge passion for and working with the students that I was in my cohort with, going back to school and making sure that I embraced the work with. With others and making sure that I fully committed to doing the work that I had for my instructors and. And really taking advantage of the fact that there's a great deal of opportunity for me to learn and to benefit from opportunities within the graduate school as well. And it's a different environment as, as many people realize. And so as I've transitioned into education now, I realize this. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:07:47]: A lot of people who are working professionals, their cup is pretty full with a professional experience. And so they come in, especially in the school of management, with our, you know, kind of business focus. They come in and they have a great deal of experience, they're leaders in their fields. And you have to humber yourself a little bit in the sense that you're kind of going back to school to learn how to do something a little bit differently, learn how to think critically and learn how to develop new pathways for doing things. And so it's tough sometimes when you've been out there and you're having a little bit of success to come back and Say, okay, well, I'm no longer the master, I'm the student. It's a really important lesson for you, both with the instructor and also with your colleagues, is they all have different ways of doing things. They work for different companies, they work for different organizations, and so they're bringing their expertise, and you really need to have an opportunity to listen to what they have to say and how they do things. Because I think that that's one of the best parts about education. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:08:31]: You're always listening. You find things unexpectedly, like our journeys. We find things, little nuggets of information, little ways that you never thought about doing something. And then all of a sudden you're. You're onto something really spectacular. And so humbling yourself and going back to education, fully committing yourself is really important. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:47]: You know, it is really important and definitely something that you're going to have to do. As you said, humble yourself and know that you're going to potentially make some mistakes along the way. And you might fall, you might trip, but you have to dust yourself off and be resilient along the way as well. Talk to me about a moment, a moment in your doctorate or your master's degree where you ran up against that wall where you struggled and you had to dust yourself off and pick yourself back up. And how did you do that? Dr. Keith Kelley [00:09:15]: Some great examples of this, my colleagues in my doctoral program, in the doctoral program in particular, is an interesting one because really, it's a really different animal than even your master's degrees. And so going back into that area, I hadn't done a great deal with statistics, and I hadn't seen a lot of, you know, just basic classwork things. And I recall that just annotations, mathematical statistical annotations such as X bar, you know, what is, what is X bar? My friends laugh at me in this moment. What is X bar? And it just basically means the mean, the average of something, right? And I'm looking at the statistics and they, some of them are professional students and they don't really. They don't really recognize the fact that if you're not into this field for quite some time, even though you understand the principles of physics, you're not necessarily understanding some of the notations. And so, you know, in some of the, the quizzes, I'm confused by some of the. Just the basics of how we mark things down, what they represent, which is comical. And another instance in my doctoral program in particular, which is kind of surprising, writing a paper for an international business class. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:08]: And, you know, I thought that I was doing Particularly well in my paper. And I was just, just expanding on many different thoughts and chasing down all kinds of different ideas and jumping down every rabbit hole that I could find, which was not how you do quality research, which I came to find out. And this was really my first year and being in the doctoral program and really kind of an eye opening experience for me. It's a different type of writing, different style of writing, and a different commitment to precision and scientific process and research. And so the guy that gave me, I think, a B plus or something like that, which is not really a great grade for your doctoral studies, you know, basically, you know, kind of a wake up call for me. And he was the guy who ended up recruiting me into the program. So I think it was doubly disappointing for him and me and the mark of shame. And so I, you know, I humbled myself again. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:52]: I said, okay, Keith, what went wrong? Why didn't you do this? Well, and, and kind of learned from that lesson. And I've gone on to have a great deal of success in that, that area. My writing style has improved. I've never, never been shy about saying that I'm not a doctor in English, but you have to do a great deal of writing and, and work on your writing style even, and the idea of doing quality research and being prec. Things that you say and how you represent, Measure things. So I think those are two great experiences. And it's a, it's an arduous process going through. This is, it takes a lot of time. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:11:21]: And you know, a great story about that is that I, when I was being somewhat recruited into the doctoral program from the, the master's degree, the guy, you know, he recognized that I was pretty sharp guy. But you know, it's difficult to tell some of the things that are needed for success in your doctoral programs. But I remember him walking me into the office of the, the chair of the department and asking if I was married and, you know, talking about my lifestyle. And he's suggesting that I might not be married after I finished my doctoral. It's a, it's a large commitment and so very taxing on your life and, and a very unique experience. And so a lot of those moments will pop up along the way. And I think a lot of people don't realize that as part of their educational process is that you're going to have moments when you're down, you want to give up. And it's not just about your intelligence, it's not just about success any one particular semester. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:05]: It's you know, the journey is a long one. It often requires that you have help along the way. I had some great friends in all of my studies, both master doctoral level studies, great supporters. And so look for support along the way because I think that's a, you know, a vital aspect of this is that you will have your ups and downs. You have those moments where you feel like you've been pushed down the stairs. And if you have your family around you, you have your colleagues around you, and you have great professors and mentors and some of that is spended on your forming relationships with these people that will help you out. And it's the, the education is one element of it, but there's also a degree component of it too. So there's a lot of people that don't end up finishing their doctoral degree because they can't get through the entirety of the process of both their courses and their dissertation in same thing with a lot of degrees, you can get your education without having a degree. Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:49]: And the degree is certainly worthwhile, I would say, in terms of the views of employers. So it's also probably a little bit of a black mark. If you started a program and you didn't finish it, what does that say about your employment prosp

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